This post was originally posted in 2010, but still holds true as we enter Halloween week in 2011.
I think there is one very simple and honest question each of us must ask ourselves as bornagain believers in the Lord Jesus Christ – is there one single thing that is good about Halloween? No doubt there is someone already thinking I am a legalistic party-pooper trying to take “the fun” out of this “silly, harmless” “holiday” – right? I mean, after all, the kids get to dress up in fun costumes with hopes to fill their bags with their favorite candies. What could be the harm in that? Or what about a night on the town going to any number of the adult costume-themed parties, where one night out of the year you can wear that mask and be someone you’re not? A night to cut loose and dabble into the “dark side”? It’s all innocent fun right?
The traditions and history of Halloween aside, have you ever considered this day to be a time to glorify evil, sorcery, witchcraft, the occult, and the horrors of life? I ask the question again, is there a single thing that is good about Halloween? Speaking from my own experience, as a child, I wasn’t allowed to go trick-or-treating in the neighborhood, but we attended the fall festivals and the like at church. Of course, dressing up as innocent cowboys and other fictional characters made everything ok at the “harvest festival”, but what this did, in my opinion, was desensitize me to the reality of Halloween and everything it truly represents. Once I became an adult, I loved to go to all the parties, bars, clubs, and events that hosted the various ghoulish festivities.
Of course, my wild escapades into the nightlife on Halloween night was not a result of bobbing for apples as a kid, but looking back into those reckless, young adult years I see that there was indeed nothing good about those nights as I drank the night away and celebrated what could be described as nothing less than glorified sin. And I professed to be a Christian.
One only has to pick up a local news magazine like Creative Loafing and browse through the October advertisements to see what I mean. The names of these events truly give weight to the depths of evil in society, and the worst part of it is, I have no doubt many of these people have any idea as to what they are promoting and taking pleasure in – events like “Feathers and Fetishes”, “Gravediggers Ball”, “Wicked Women of Wax”, “Campground Massacre”, “Sin City Halloween Party”, and most revolting is “Sin Sunday Fangbangers Ball” at a local “men’s club”. Yet, on the other hand, we only have to go to John 3:18 to see why men and women take pleasure in such blatant wickedness:
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
At the Carowinds theme park in Charlotte, NC, an event is held each year titled Scarowinds, and they boast from the website (emphasis mine):
…for a deathly descriptive run down of our 11 attractions and scarezones, as well as our sinful stage shows and terrifying rides, visit Scarowinds.com People are DYING to get in are you? All you fear is here!
A brief look into the different attractions reveals “scare zones” such as “Camp Killauee”, “Dead Inn”, “Slaughter House”, and the “Silver Scream Sinema“. And to think that professing Christians can go to venues making light and fun of sin, the very thing that God hates, and have no sensitivity to such foolery. It’s truly mind-boggling and a testament to the state of the professing church.
I can’t put into words the advertisements I have seen through various media outlets over the last few years amplifying and glorifying these things God detests. I have come to the conclusion, however, that Halloween is the most evil day of the year and I want nothing to do with it as far as participation is concerned. The answer to the question I posed at the beginning of this post is clear to me – there is nothing good about Halloween. Another even more necessary question must be asked, what in Halloween brings glory to God? Surely you cannot answer in the affirmative there is anything about this day that glorifies the name of Jesus Christ.
As born again believers, each of us must ask these questions of ourselves. What are we doing for our children when we make light of this day and provide them with “less scary” alternatives? Obviously, a child isn’t sinning for knocking on doors asking for candy, nor do I believe you as parents are sinning by allowing your children to do so (unless, of course, you are being convicted by the Holy Spirit to not do so). But what I’m asking you to consider is this:
All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. – 1 Corinthians 10:23-24
Admittedly, it is not my place to judge anyone should they participate in the apparent innocence of trick-or-treating and the like. But we must ask ourselves what are the benefits? And are we playing a role in desensitizing our children to the weight of sin? As for me and my house, we have chosen to not compromise.
There is so much deception in the world today, and as we near the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, the deception will only increase. The less we compromise our Christian values and moral principles and the less we are conformed to the things of this world (Romans 12:2), the less ammunition we give the world to seduce our children into the ways of the world. We must detach ourselves from the crowds. We must make up our minds and be resolved to protect our families no matter the cost. God has a standard of holiness and we are to pursue it with all of our strength out of the abundance of love in our hearts for Him.
This world is passing away (1 John 2:15-17) and we as Christians have been called out. We have been set apart. We are, in fact, aliens in this world whose citizenship is in heaven (Philippians 3:20). The line in the sand has been drawn, and within my power and ability I will choose the things of God, love the things He loves, and hate the things he hates, namely sin. Not only do I not want to offend God in this manner, but I no longer want to go along with the crowd or continue to do things because that’s just the way we’ve always done it. And any time we take pleasure in the things God hates, we dishonor Him and relish in the very things for which He was crucified.
And speaking of Christ’s death and glorious resurrection, God can and will take something that was intended for evil and turn it into something for good and His glory. What better time than to talk to somebody about the free gift of grace God offers to sinners? While sin and death are being celebrated in a way that distorts truth, we have the opportunity to reveal the reality of sin and the certainty of death. And all who do not recognize their sinful condition and gift of grace through repentance and faith in Christ will realize the wages of sin – eternal death.
If you’re planning on handing out candy this weekend, I encourage you to add to your stash the Gospel. Be sensitive to your surroundings and in your conversations this weekend and look for opportunities to talk about death. Styrofoam gravestones, zombies, caskets, death scenes, and the like provide us with great conversation starters – like, “what do you think really happens when you die”? Give the person you’re talking to a chance to explain what they believe, and should they not understand salvation, share the Gospel with them in truth and love. While many of these people are flippantly celebrating death, eternal death will be their fate should they continue along the wide path of destruction.
I hope this post has given you something to think about. We must examine everything we do to see whether or not it honors God and brings glory to His name. Those things in our lives that clutter and weigh us down or distort or compromise the truth must be cleaned out. At the very least, I hope this post leads you to pray about these things.
Be safe this weekend.
Thomas S. Barnes
October 24, 2011
Something we have started doing as a family is to watch ‘Luther’ ever October 31st. Great post. I share your views on this.
Thanks Justin!
Justin Edwards
October 24, 2011
That’s a great idea. I’m disappointed it’s not offered on Netflix though.
Thomas S. Barnes
October 24, 2011
I think we may have gotten it from puritanpuicks.com lasy yr. This is one is a must to add to the Family library. I need to go ahead and purchase it.
Thomas S. Barnes
October 24, 2011
that’s puritanpicks.com not puritanpuicks.com
Tracey
October 24, 2011
I agree Justin. The church merely puts a “band-aid” on the event to make it appear “Christian” when in fact there isn’t any part of Halloween that we should be engaging our children in. The excuse of it being an outreach to the lost is just that, an excuse to participate.
Why not, as parents, teach our children that none of it glorifies God and therefore we abstain from it entirely, including events at the church “as an alternative.” Why don’t we parents set the standard and say Halloween or the candy have no holds over our family, they are not “missing out” on anything. Let’s teach them the truth about Halloween instead of saying “we just don’t do the evil stuff involved.” It’s a ritual. All of it.
Rather, why not open the church that night for PRAYER against the devil and his evil schemes for that evening? That is how we the church should take part, IMO.
Candy is yet available 364 other days of the year (not that they need it anyway). When we label something that is evil entirely as fun, we should really take a second look at whom we are representing. 1 Cor 10:31
Dressing up kids in “innocent costumes” is still taking part in the reasons why they concealed themselves in the first place going door to door.
We Christians need to set the standard, not the other way around. Our actions are not to be of this world.
If churches want to have a Biblical dress up day for kids…why not do it in the spring, another season entirely that is not connected to Halloween whatsoever.
I end with this…God calls us to obedience, not to results.
Tracey
October 24, 2011
We have taught our children to memorize 1 Cor 10:31 and as a reminder, the chapter and verse are easy to remember because it corresponds with Halloween’s date.
Chadwick Harvey
October 24, 2011
Interesting that I Corinthians 10:31 us quoted for in all things you do it to the glory of God. Actually that verse in its proper context dealt with the subject of whether or not to eat food sacrificed to idols. Paul’s thoughts in a nutshell were consistent in that it was not the practice itself of eating food offered to idols but rather the intent in which it was done. If eating food offered to idols was simply a way to fill one’s stomach with a good tasty meal with no intent of religious devotion being held by eating that food, then it was acceptable. I place Halloween in the same category. It’s not the event itself that is evil, but rather the intent of which the event is practiced Halloween as a pagan and evil holiday, then we must be consistent and promote a ban of all Christmas trees, and Easter Eggs, not to mention a host of other things that find their origin in pagan ideologies. With all due respect, I firmly disagree with you Justin. Rather than viewing as an evil Holiday of which we should avoid perhaps even the acknowledgement of, I think we should embrace and approach it as an opportunity to have a good time of Christian fun and fellowship with one another and maybe even as an outreach to give people an alternative from the encouragement of sinful practices that are often promoted by secular media outlets. No object or event in and of itself is evil. Rather it is the intent behind the use of the object or the recognition of the event that makes it good or evil.
Justin Edwards
October 24, 2011
Hi Chad, good to hear from you. What exactly are you “celebrating”? And what is “Christian fun”?
Tracey
October 24, 2011
“Paul’s thoughts in a nutshell were consistent in that it was not the practice itself of eating food offered to idols but rather the intent in which it was done. If eating food offered to idols was simply a way to fill one’s stomach with a good tasty meal with no intent of religious devotion being held by eating that food, then it was acceptable.”
Are you aware of why those went door to door, concealed, asking for “treats?”
Chadwick Harvey
October 24, 2011
Christian fun would be a good time of fellowship that is honoring and uplifting to Christ. I think you could celebrate tons of things for Halloween, even good times that are honorable and Christian. You might ask yourself, what are you celebrating when you put your Christmas tree up each year? Or when you buy easter chocolates in the shape of a bunny? Again, I reiterate that no celebration of an event in and of itself is evil. If I wear a costume, it is not to ward off the evil spirits as was the tradition of the druids. Halloween in its origins was meant to be a celebration of all the saints who had died from the previous year. It was later that it was corrupted by Druids and other pagan ideologies that stained its original intent. Again personally, I see no more wrong wearing a costume than I see in indulging in bunny chocolates for Easter or putting up a tree for Christmas. It is simply a recognition of the culture of the time and how the culture of the time identifies with th event.
Justin Edwards
October 24, 2011
Sorry Chad, I don’t think you answered my question. What are you celebrating when you “do” Halloween? Are you honoring Christian martyrs? p.s. we don’t buy chocolate covered bunnies.
Tracey
October 24, 2011
I agree, Christmas and Easter also have pagan roots, but sticking to the original post about Halloween for this blog entry, the Scriptures declare it to be evil…Halloween was/is a day where they would worship and communicate with dead ancestors and the spirit realm. Not to mention children sacrifices. You are honoring a day that was set aside specifically for these acts. Are you saying these activities are NOT evil?
9“When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. 10“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12“For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. 13“You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14“For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so. Duet. 18:9-14
Tracey
October 24, 2011
“It is simply a recognition of the culture of the time and how the culture of the time identifies with the event.”
Part of the culture in China, for example, is for parents who are adopting Chinese children in a ceremony is to bow to an idol. Does this give you permission to do so because it’s simply their culture to do so?
David
October 24, 2011
Actually, Halloween is a very Christian holiday. Not the way it’s celebrated today, but the Feast of All Saints is the holy day, and it begins at sundown on Oct 31. We encourage our children to dress as the pillars of our Church on this evening, and not to play pranks, but to engage in fellowship. Chadwick has it right. If you put up a tree and decorations for Christmas and participate in any of the Christmas traditions, they are all corruptions of pious practices of days gone by. But look at how the secular world celebrates Valentine’s Day, Mardi Gras or St. Patrick’s Day…I shake my head in wonder…
Justin Edwards
October 24, 2011
Are you Catholic, David?
David
October 25, 2011
What does it matter to the facts? But yes, I am.
Justin Edwards
October 25, 2011
Because I would not expect you to understand the Christian worldview as an unbeliever (if in fact you are a devout Catholic). Frankly and respectfully, Halloween is the least of your worries.
Emcee
October 24, 2011
Justin, I agree with your opinion on Halloween, and Christmas as well as Easter. Christians have become far too like the world, and celebration of these holidays cannot be honoring to Christ. In our family, Halloween was abolished many years ago. I have done the same with Christmas and Easter as well, although my children have not agreed to give these up in their own families. A couple of other verses, may be helpful here: Romans 13:12 and Ephesians 5:11; both of these verses speak to the Christian’s participation in “deeds of darkness.” Considering the origins of all of these pagan holidays, Christians need to be separate from the world, and should not participate in them in my opinion. WWJD? I seriously doubt that Jesus would attend a celebration of His own birth on the birthday of the Roman sun-god (December 25th,) nor would He celebrate a festival with the very name of a Pagan goddess, Easter. It is now well-known that Jesus was actually born on the 15th day of the 7th month (September-October) which is also the first day of the feast of Sukkot, or Tabernacles; see John 1:14, where Jesus “tabernacled among us.”
Raymond Smale
October 24, 2011
as Christians we do not celebrate pagan infested holidays like Halloween ,Easter ,Christmas.
do not do mans traditions but gods word
David
October 25, 2011
How nice! “As Christians we do not celebrate the birth of Christ or the passion, death and resurrection of Christ.” Kinda takes the meaning out of “Christian”…
Justin Edwards
October 25, 2011
That’s not what he said, David. Easter has nothing to do with the death and glorious resurrection of Christ. By the way, what is a Christian?
David
October 26, 2011
A follower of Jesus. One who believes everything He said because he is the Way, the Truth and the Light.
But back to the point he made, whatever the world does with the day, date, or whatever, matters not to Christians. Sure, we look with horror, but we celebrate the birth of Christ on Christmas. That’s not pagan. And there’s some evidence, obviously not proveable, that Jesus was born on Dec 25. And on Easter, regardless of bunnies and chicks and chocolate, we Christians celebrate the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus made for you and for me. I fully understand that “Easter” is not about bunnies and so on, it is about the Passion of Christ. And many of us Catholics do know what’s behind those days.
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
What does it mean to follow Jesus?
Chadwick Harvey
October 24, 2011
Several things to respond to here. I will do so in as much of a nutshell as possible.
Justin, why does it have to be a celebration of anything. Can’t I just participate in the event as a part of the culture in which I live to have a good time of fun and fellowship? Personally I think a total condemnation of Halloween is to condemn the culture. In this, we should follow the model of Paul because who didn’t condemn the culture but rather found a way to infuse the message of the gospel into the culture. A perfect example of this is in I think Acts 17 when Paul introduces the gospel message by making reference to the tomb of the unknown god. Research clearly reveals that the acknowledgement reverence of this “tomb of the unknown god” was a cornerstone of the pagan tradition within the culture. However, instead of condemning the people for the practice, Paul instead found a way to communicate the gospel by incoorporating the cultural symbol that was the tomb of the unknown God. That is just of one of many examples I can cite in which Paul did this. Was Paul celebrating the tomb of the unknown God by his acknowledgement of it and his tying it into the gospel message?
Tracee, clearly if I were to bow to an idol as you mention they do in China, then I would practicing a pagan tradition. I’m puzzled as to why you reference that in the context of this discussion here. Unless you’re trying to make the far-fetched argument that me putting on a costume is equivalent to bowing to an idol. In the same context you must also take issue with Paul’s views on eating food sacrificed to idols. Paul was very clear about eating food sacrificed to idols. If I eat a steak from a cow that has been sacrificed to an idol with the belief that it will give me some kind of special spiritual energy then the practice has become sin for me. If I just eat it because I enjoyed a nice lean juicy steak then there is no sin there.
I think we are missing the big picture here. Obviously you and Justin both have your convictions about celebrating Halloween and I respect those convictions an have no intentions of showing up your doorstep in a costume asking for candy. Just make sure you don’t have your porchlights on so I know to respect that. If I were to show up on your doorstep in a costume now that I have knowledge of your convictions then that would be a sin because it is sin for you to participate in the event so I would be causing my brothers and sisters in Christ to stumble. With all due respect to openly condemn the event the way that you guys are in this post, I think you are not heeding Paul’s advice to not condemn those of whom it is not sin for. How we choose to respond to Halloween is an issue of which we could vigorously debate as Christians, but that we must never divide over. I honestly do not feel that a blog is the right place for that because the arguments we will go back and forth with on this blog could be a stumbling block to other brothers and sisters and could turn others off from being open to receiving the gospel. I’ve said my piece and while I am tempted to debate it more I feel that I must practice the virtue the practice of self-discipline and check out from this issue. I’ve said my thoughts and obviously we have disagreements. Let’s just agree to disagree.
Justin Edwards
October 25, 2011
That’s probably the best thing to do – agree to disagree. My purpose here was not to change your mind, but to challenge you to pray about it and examine whether Halloween is something that would fall under Philippians 4:8-9. This is between you and the Lord, and I encourage you to ask Him to reveal His will to you whether it is right or wrong. Romans 12:1-2 in all things.
David
October 26, 2011
What I’m also trying to say is not to change your mind about how to deal with it. I’m trying to show what the holy day was meant to be, which is the start of the feast the Catholic Church celebrates in honor of those servants of God who are in heaven. That others have twisted it to be a horror show has nothing to do with what it’s supposed to be. Frankly I give candy to children in decent costumes, like Cinderella or Snow White, and tend to not give anything to those in demonic garb. When I had young children, they were encouraged to dress as a saint, like St. Francis of Assisi, showing the saint’s characteristics and so on. And to confer a blessing on houses where they went to get some candy.
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
What does one have to do to become a saint?
Mitch
October 25, 2011
Amen Great post Bro, personally for me perhaps this year it is more of a remembrance for Reformation day lol I have the DVD called “Amazing Grace History and Theology of Calvanism” I’ve had this for a long time just haven’t had time to watch it yet so perhaps I will set down next weekend to watch it. Anyway Great post I agree with all the major points we should be set apart for God to serve Him in all we can do.
God Bless!
Thomas S. Barnes
October 25, 2011
Amazing Grace is an excellent dvd. That was one of the resources that helped me understand Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace more clearly a number of yrs. ago,
Justin Edwards
October 25, 2011
I’m hoping to watch this one too. Thanks, brother.
Brian B
October 25, 2011
I tend to agree that it is a tragic event, Halloween is. I have listened and understand the arguments both pro and con from brothers and sisters. Yet, I still view 99.9% of the “PoP Culture as a pestilence in regard to these types of “adult” parties and activities, they simply don’t promote purity and peace. As for the children, it seems nothing short of teaching them to pan handle starting with door to door begging practices. Just sayin’…
Billy Edwards
October 25, 2011
Justin…..so there are no genuine Catholic believers?
Justin Edwards
October 25, 2011
If they are genuine believers, then they are no longer Catholic, and the Holy Spirit will draw them out of the Mother of All Harlots.
Billy Edwards
October 25, 2011
Now cousin Justin
….are you suggesting that a denomination, or a church, for that matter, has to be doctrinally pure for true believers to be a part of that? Some are tied to a church because it’s familiar, but who can overlook some unbiblical stuff. They search for truth on their own, yet worship with the familiar. And if a true believer must be drawn out of a deficient church, when will the Holy Spirit lead them out? Upon conversion? 1 year, 5 years? You assumed David was lost because he was a Catholic. And one more….is the Daughter (church) of All Harlots acceptable – i.e., how much apostasy does a church have to have to be unfit?
Justin Edwards
October 25, 2011
Thanks for the follow-up, Billy. The RCC is not a Christian denomination. What is your understanding of justification? What is your understanding of the Catholic mass? The Eucharist? I don’t know when the Holy Spirit would draw them out, but one thing is certain, one cannot be a devout Catholic and a born again believer. The reasons why are inherent to the questions I ask you. No church is 100% doctrinally pure, but all bible believing churches are 100% pure on the essentials of the faith. If they fail on the essentials, then they are “unfit”.
If David believes the information on his website, then yes, I’m afraid he is lost. Perhaps this will help him come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ: http://airocross.com/eternal-life/
David
October 25, 2011
Because you say that Roman Catholics aren’t Catholic in no way makes it so. Justification is by faith and works. Not works of the law, but works of the heart, which are from God. The Catholic Mass is entirely Biblical, as is the doctrine of the Eucharist. Catholics are THE definition of “born-again Christian”. You say no church is 100% doctrinally pure, yet if you study the teachings of Christ, you find them ALL in Catholic doctrine. We are protected by the Holy Spirit from erroneous teaching. You say “all bible-believing churches…” well, the Catholic Church is the penultimate Bible believing Church. Catholic Church determined the canon of scripture, and scripture is the basis for all Catholic teaching. I was a non-Catholic, and chose Catholicism, because of its historical truth. The truth is The Truth-Jesus Christ. I know-men cannot be perfect, and believers all have different levels of belief, but the truth is that Catholics are the Truth.
Justin Edwards
October 25, 2011
David, I don’t think it will serve either one of us to argue back and forth about Catholicism. You have already discovered my position in my Catholic page. Perhaps we could just cut to the chase and allow me to ask you whether you would go to heaven if you died today?
David
October 26, 2011
I don’t think any of us can answer that question. All we can do is try to live in God’s grace. I believe I would be a candidate, because anything I have knowingly and willingly done wrong, I have repented for, and resolve not to do again. That doesn’t mean I’m perfect, and we know that nothing perfect can enter heaven. So I’m sure I will go through some purgation before I’m allowed into heaven.
Would you? Your judgemental-ness makes me wonder…
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
I knew you would say that you couldn’t answer that question. I have never met a Catholic who knows 100% that they would go to heaven. This is primary evidence that they do not have the Hope of salvation within them (1 Peter 1:3; 3:15) because they are still trusting in themselves and their own works. Their hope is in themselves and whether they have avoided mortal sin, done enough good charitable works, and were faithful enough to the sacraments. They do not trust in the sufficiency of Christ’s work on the cross and the blood that He shed to atone for the sins of His people (1 John 2:2; Colossians 1:19-20; Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:9; John 19:30; Hebrews 10:10-14;).
There is nothing you can do to “try to live in God’s grace”, David. It is only by God’s grace that you can enter into His rest, and this come by the proclamation of the unadulterated Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit. However, you are trusting in your repentance “to keep you in God’s grace”. You’re trusting in the wrong thing and person.
And yes, I know beyond a shadow of doubt that I will go to heaven because I have already received eternal life. If you allow me, I’d love to share that with you so you can receive this gift and know that you have eternal life as the Apostle John promises in 1 John 5:13:
“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”
Do you wish to know, David?
David
October 26, 2011
You don’t know either, you only think you know. We know that we are all unworthy, and that only Christ can give us the gift of eternal life. It’s dying in God’s friendship that gets us into heaven, and doing as Christ commanded us. No, our hope is that we follow Christ as He wants, has nothing to do with ourselves. How does “Everything I have and do is a gift of God” translate to what you say I’m saying???
Christ’s death is sufficient to redeem us, but we have to do something as well. Otherwise, you’re saying everyone on earth is going to heaven, and that’s just not true.
So, are you saying you don’t try to live in God’s grace? So you can just go do whatever you please, and God’s grace will save you? No, I say, we must discern what God’s plan is for us, and do it. By your statement here, you’re contradicting yourself-saying that everyone prior to the writing of the gospels (which would include Jesus Himself) is not in His Rest. Quite the paradox, I think. How could God not be in God’s grace??? I don’t trust any ‘thing’, I only trust in God, to the best of my ability (which comes from Him).
You’ve received eternal life, alright, by virtue of God’s creation of you. When you die, you will certainly live. The place where you will live is what’s uncertain.
And, as I said, your judgemental-ness makes me wonder if you really know…I’ll take my belief from God and Christ, thanks.
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
Was John lying in 1 John 5:13, David?
Yes, Christ commanded us to repent and believe. That’s it. See Mark 1:15, Luke 9:23, Romans 3:21-25, John 3:18.
This is a contradiction. You cannot hope in your ability and not hope in your ability at the same time. Our hope is not in our obedience, our hope is in Christ alone. See this: http://www.gotquestions.org/hope-Bible.html
I’m not sure since that is the first time I have seen that quote.
I added the period to the above because it stops there in reality.
Then you believe in another Gospel and are accursed if you die this way (Galatians 1:8-9). Paul would also disagree with you in Philippians 3:9 and many other places: “and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—”
Nope. Here’s why: 14 Reasons Why Christ Sovereignly Redeems Part A and Part B
Yes, and I’m also saying I can’t try.
Nope, not saying that all. What I am saying is that I am already saved by God’s grace, and God’s grace sanctifies me. See Titus 2:11, Romans 6:1-4, and 1 John 3:4-9 .
That’s right, by grace alone. See Romans 12:1-2, Ephesians 2:10, and Philippians 2:13.
Nope, wrong again. See Romans 3:25-26, Romans 4:1-9, Romans 11:1-6, Hebrews 11
I believe that because you told me you do not trust in Christ’s work on the cross to save you. A work is a “thing”. You not only must believe that Jesus is God, but you also have to believe He alone has the power to forgive your sins by His sovereign authority as Lord and His atoning sacrifice on the cross. See previous verses on the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement.
You perceive my judging of you is for anything less than caring for you. Based on our conversation and my observance of your website, it is clear you are trusting in yourself to go to heaven. Out of love I am telling you that you are deceived and call you to repent from your self-righteousness and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ alone. I have shared many Scriptures with you and hope you will take some time to study them. I am not interested in a war of words if the Scriptures I am sharing with you are being overlooked.
David
October 28, 2011
MODERATOR EDIT – David, no proselytizing Catholic dogma especially by copy and paste plagiarism. This will be your last warning.
David
October 28, 2011
To plagerize a movie…’you can’t handle the truth’. That’s a problem with Protestants. Rather than listening to what God says, they listen to what they think God means.
I wish you all the best.
Brian B
October 25, 2011
I am just a simple man. Catholic, and catholic I do understand. My leaning is toward Calvin. I must say however. I have always felt a spirit of oppression when in the past I have darkened the doorways of the Roman Catholic Church, and a hand full of other churches as well. By Grace I was swayed, not any great discerning or theological abilities. I gifted these gut wrenching sensations, no doubt as a warning to flee.
Billy Edwards
October 25, 2011
I was kinda pulling for David until his last comment. Sorry, buddy, but you have missed the boat. No church is the Truth – you should have stopped with “The Truth – Jesus Christ.” To adhere to a church as the container of truth is to be nearly as far off base as possible. You can’t say that “no church is 100% doctrinally pure” and then claim that the Catholic church is the Truth.. As to the Catholic church being the “penultimate Bible believing church”, you are correct. But penultimate doesn’t mean what you think it does.
Justin Edwards
October 25, 2011
Billy, the reason why David makes the claim that the RCC is the truth is because it denies Sola Scriptura and puts itself and its traditions on equal divine authority as the Bible.
David
October 26, 2011
Where does the Bible say that it is the only source of revelation? Why does Paul tell Timothy to pass on the traditions “I have taught you”? What was the Bible before it was all brought together by the Catholic Church?
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
http://carm.org/bible-alone-sufficient-spiritual-truth
David
October 26, 2011
You’re the one who believes the Bible alone is sufficient. So if the Bible alone is sufficient, where is it written in the Bible that it stands on its own? Your own reference admits that not everything is in scripture, but that scripture is the primary source we look to for our faith. It in no way excludes Apostolic, or Sacred Tradition. In fact, St. Paul tells us that the traditions of the Apostles is to be held as equal to scripture. The true “rule of faith”—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.
My question to you is this. If the Bible alone is sufficient, why are there more than 30,000 denominations, all of which have a different understanding of what the New Testament says and means? Why is it that there’s only one that believes exactly what Jesus taught?
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
David, again, if you want to know my position on these things, you can go to my Catholic page here: http://airocross.com/roman-catholicism/ Perhaps you will take some time to view the videos and maybe even pick up a copy of Mike Gendron’s book. In fact, I’ll purchase it for you and send it to you as a gift if you’d like. Maybe that would demonstrate to you how salvation is a gift of grace in the same sense that the book would be a gift of grace from me to you. In any case, it is a sincere offer that I hope you take me up on.
David
October 26, 2011
I know, beyond a doubt, that salvation is a gift of grace. But I must accept it, and acknowledge it for it to have any effect. Of course, God gives me the grace to see the truth.
By the way, I let it slide above, where you say that the Catholic Church puts itself and its traditions on equal authority with the Bible…no, we do not. We put Apostolic Tradition, and teaching authority of the successors of the bishops in communion with the Pope on equal authority.
Praying the rosary and fasting on Friday are not Apostolic Tradition. The belief that Jesus instituted the Eucharist is, and it’s backed by John 6, and 1 Cor 2:12-14. The interpretation of that passage is Apostolic Tradition.
David
October 26, 2011
Billy, did Jesus establish a church? Or did he say there could be many churches? Many ways to follow and obey him? We don’t claim that the institution “The Catholic Church” is the truth. We claim that we are the Church that Jesus founded on Pentecost, and foretold in Matthew 16:18, and promised to protect with the Holy Spirit at the Last Supper. We believe the Church that Christ instituted is protected from error in faith and morals.
You’re right, I used a word wrong, but you got what I mean. The Catholic Church is the first Bible believing church. And the only one with the whole Old Testament. And you’re right, again, I was wrong. The Catholic Church is doctrinally pure. We have the fullness of the truth brought to us from the words of Christ and from his disciples and apostles. And that’s the end of it. The Catholic Church now is the same Catholic Church then.
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
http://carm.org/is-peter-the-rock
Billy Edwards
October 26, 2011
David,
Certainly Jesus established “the church” – singular. But to understand that as an organized body, even loosely so, is to miss the meaning. The “church” is the redeemed of all ages, all races, all locations. It is not an institution; it is comprised of people who follow Jesus exclusively. To say the church is merely an institution is to take any personal faith out of the mix. I can join any institution, religious or not, without embracing all its tenents. But I’ve just got an outward obedience, which Jesus soundly condemned.
As to the Catholic Church being protected from error in faith, you might want to revisit some issues Catholics had in the past. They have certainly had errors in faith, as has every other church and denomination. Again, the issue is not instututional, it’s personal – it’s not about what one church or denomination does with the Truth; it’s about what an individual does with the Truth. Churches can’t get us to heaven.
To think that going to one brand of church will get me into heaven is no different than thinking that going to McDonald’s will make me a Big Mac.
The issue with the Bible being the sole source of God’s revelation is found in 2 Timothy 3. God “breathed” Scripture. He did not, nor does not today, “breathe” His word to any man, Pope included.
And surely, there was no “Catholic Church” then – back in the day. There was a catholic church – a univeral church – comprised of all believers in all places. No organization tied them together until years and years later. They were united under the headship of Jesus, and under the authority of elders, not under the umbrella of a Pope and bishops.
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
Amen, brother. And I love the Big Mac illustration. I use it in evangelism often.
David
October 26, 2011
And the problem with this reference, by claiming that Jesus couldn’t be talking about Peter because he gave him a feminine name, is that Greek does have genders, but they were not speaking Greek. Matthew originally wrote in Hebrew and Aramaic, and was later translated to Greek, which could not translate Kephas to Petra, so changed it to Petros. But the point, whether you believe that Peter is the rock or not, is that Jesus did not create many denominations, all having a different idea of what he said. I didn’t say Jesus created an institution. Men created the institution to service the faith as it grew from the 100 or so that followed Christ when he walked to the thousands in Jerusalem, then the Churches in Asia Minor, Greece and Rome. The authority of the Church was to keep everyone believing exactly what Jesus and the apostles taught.
Name some ‘errors in faith’ that the Catholic Church has ever had. You say it’s not institutional, it’s personal, but without the Holy Spirit’s guiding hand, how can you or I know that they are walking the right path?
I don’t believe that going to a Catholic Church is going to make me go to heaven. There’s enough bad Catholics to suggest that this is erroneous thought. Only God’s grace can get me there, and my willingness to follow him. The Church is holy because Jesus is holy, and it’s the Church he established. To go to heaven you must do as Christ commanded.
Certainly, scripture is God-breathed. No doubt about it. But Jesus protected the apostles from teaching error by sending His Holy Spirit to guide them down the true path. So the Apostles words and teaching are like Scripture. This is the definition of Sacred Tradition. The way we prove our doctrine to be true is to look to the apostles and how they lived and taught.
The Catholic Church is held together by common belief, and the Holy Spirit, and that, friend, is universal. Clement’s letter to the Corinthians is a prime example of the Bishop of Rome writing to encourage the faithful in Corinth to stay true to the teaching of the one Church. Clement was pope in 80 AD, just 14 years after Peter, the first pope, died.
The combination “the Catholic Church” (he katholike ekklesia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110, and was used as a phrase which people knew, so was in wide use among the faithful. The words run: “Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [katholike] Church.” Meaning ‘one and only’, according to Kattenbusch, the Protestant professor of theology at Giessen.
Billy Edwards
October 26, 2011
David,
You said, “Christ’s death is sufficient to redeem us, but we have to do something as well.” Both statements cannot be true. Christ’s death is either sufficient or it is not. If it isn’t, then we must constantly do something to help Jesus out in our salvation – which sounds kinda goofy, in my opinion. How am I going to help Jesus out in salvation? If it sufficient, then that’s awesome news for us. And the Bible says it is.
You see, when Jesus died on the cross, all of God’s wrath and punishment for sin was poured out on Him. For all who will believe – and only for those who believe – the wrath and punishment for sin has already been satisfied. When Jesus said, “It is finished”, He wasn’t kidding. It’s over. Surely we still pay the consequences for sin – a stupid tax, if you will – but the penatly and punishment for sin was fully paid by Jesus. I don’t have to help Him out – now, or in purgatory.
You asked cousin Justin if that meant he could live any way He wanted to. Well, the answer is, “Yes, he can.” A believer’s response of faith to the gospel is one of love, not one of duty. I obey the commands with the power of the Holy Spirit not out of fear or duty (because my guilt and punishment have already been paid in full), but becuase I am so grateful for the salvation I’ve been given. For me, obedience is an act of worship to a merciful, gracious God. I respond to God’s love by loving Him back – by obeying Him in the power of the Spirit.
When I or cousin Justin do not obey, it does not eliminate or make questionable our salvation because, again, the price is paid in full. And if there is a scoundrel who professes Christ but never “lives” Christ, that person never believed Jesus.
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
“Love God and do as you please.” – Martin Luther
David
October 26, 2011
We are required to cooperate with Christ. Whether Christ’s resurrection and death were sufficient does not mean that everyone goes to heaven. Why? Because people can choose not to cooperate, a la Adam and Eve, and wind up in hell. It’s their choice. You make it sound like everyone goes to heaven because Christ died for all our sins. But we are required to acknowledge our sinfulness, and repent. We’re not helping or being asked to help. We’re asked to cooperate, or not.
You’re right, we still must pay for our sins. That’s what purgatory is. But we have to repent in this life to be considered a friend of God. Surely, it is His grace that takes us to that point. But even with that, we’re still free to deny.
You certainly may not live your life how you want to and expect to go to heaven. Even some believers think they can fornicate and have abortions and still go to heaven? But no, we must submit ourselves to God’s will, and live by His laws. Certainly it must be done out of love, and not out of some duty. (Example, when I tried to quit smoking because my wife wanted me to, I couldn’t do it, but when I did it for love, and asked Jesus to help me quit, I was totally successful. Before, I still did it because I loved it more than I loved my wife, sad to say.) I don’t obey out of fear or duty either, brother, I really don’t. But obeying out of fear or sense of duty is better than not obeying.
God loves us so much he will give us what we love the most, even if it’s not Him. And we show what we love the most by how we live our lives. Of course we ask him to help us live according to His will, if we’re really Christians. But some people pray to win the lottery. Some pray to have a promotion at work. Some pray that their team win on Sunday.
So while you certainly can do whatever you want to do, God will allow it, but that doesn’t mean you won’t pay for it. Jesus payed for our forgiveness. Just as you might forgive a child for taking candy without permission, though, he must still pay a price for doing that deed.
Justin Edwards
October 26, 2011
David, please see my comment where I begin with “Was John lying in 1 John 5:13, David?” I gave you an abundance of Scripture for you to consider and hope you will take your time reading through them. May I ask how often you read the Bible? As in, how often you spend personal time by yourself studying? You have posted an awful lot of words in this thread but have seldom posted Scripture. I’d like to know if you spend time in the Word of God purposefully, diligently, and daily.
Ultimately, much of what you have said in this comment takes us back to the Reformation. Perhaps my current series on the doctrines of grace will give you something to consider in this light: http://airocross.com/2011/10/10/10-reasons-man-needs-a-sovereign-savior/ I welcome you to ask questions under each respective article.
David
October 27, 2011
Like I need to defend myself to you…but I read Scripture daily, several times a day. I pray the psalms with the Church, and am a proclaimer of the scriptures in my parish. I also take classes on scripture study, and the doctrines of the Catholic Church.
One of the problems is that you guys (protesters) have changed the meaning or definition of what was unquestioned for 1500 years. You say ‘your current series on the doctrine of grace”, but basically, you just believe that the doctrine of the Catholic Church is wrong. I disagree.
Justin Edwards
October 27, 2011
David, when was the last time you read straight through the Gospel of John alone, just you and God? No outside influence – no Catechism, no Pope, no liturgy. Just you and God. I encourage you to do that. But before you do, do you have the courage to ask God to show you that you are wrong about these things if you are indeed wrong? If God showed you that you have it all wrong, would you repent? Trust Him, and ask Him to guide you – He will.
David
October 27, 2011
I read the gospel of John at least three times a year. But you cannot read the Bible alone, or as you say, just you and God. You must have some authority to put it in context.
And, seeing that we believe that we have the faith of God, how can we ask God if He’s wrong? Especially when He Himself has shown me the Truth of the Catholic Church? Let me spell it out for you-there is NOTHING the Catholic Church teaches that Christ Himself did not teach. Nothing that is contrary to scripture. Everything in Apostolic Tradition points directly to Christ and the Gospel. Every understanding or interpretation of scripture that the Catholic Church holds is the understanding of those closest to Jesus Himself. God has guided me, and is guiding me now. I know it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Justin Edwards
October 27, 2011
Then I guess we have nothing further to discuss here, David. Thanks for the discussion and I bid you farewell.
Billy Edwards
October 26, 2011
David,
You said, “You make it sound like everyone goes to heaven because Christ died for all our sins.” I said, “For all who will believe – and only for those who believe – the wrath and punishment for sin has already been satisfied.” Obviously, not all believe. So, no, I didn’t make it sound like everyone goes to heaven.
You said, “You’re right, we still must pay for our sins.” I said, “We still pay the consequences for sin – a stupid tax, if you will – but the penatly and punishment for sin was fully paid by Jesus.” I did not say we still pay for our sins. We do not. Jesus paid the final and only price for the sins of every believer (to be clear again, only believers have forgiveness). We pay the consquences of our sin – not the penalty and guilt of them. Jesus did that. Jesus took the punishment for my sin. By His grace, I take none of it.
You said, “You certainly may not live your life how you want to and expect to go to heaven.” Sure you can. Paul said that once we come to faith in Christ, we are new creatures. We’re not the same as we were. Surely we still battle the flesh daily, but we don’t have to be controlled by the flesh, because we’ve been made new.
I fear you missed my point. We can live anyway we want because we have a new “want-er”. A truly born again person has the desire to please God and live for Him. One who is not cannot have that desire, no matter what church he belongs to or what comes out of his mouth. The issue is always whether or not a person has been made new by Christ.
You said, “obeying out of fear or sense of duty is better than not obeying.” That’s nothing but legalism which Jesus condemned at every turn. Obeying out of fear or duty is diametrically opposite of the freedom for which Jesus died to give us. Those who obey out of fear and duty have misunderstood, and thus misapplied, the gospel. And it all goes back to that idea you have that you must “help” Jesus save you.
You have a problem with your final illustration with the candy and the child. You are right in that somebody has to pay the price for sin. In your illustration, it was the kid. But in God’s economy, it was His Son. Make no mistake, sin must be paid for – by somebody. But God freely provided that payment for sin for all who will believe – through the death of His Son.
David
October 27, 2011
And I said that even the Devil believes that Jesus Christ is Lord, but he’s not going to heaven. Why??? Because he does no good works.
What you’re saying is that you can live any way you want, as long as you conform to Christ, which is not ‘living any way you want’. People every day say they believe in Jesus Christ, yet commit murder by abortion. So they don’t believe what they say they believe. Saying it isn’t enough, you must do it. That’s what works are. NOT works of the law.
There’s no problem in my example. You’re idea that we can live any way we want and get a free ride is just wrong.
Thomas S. Barnes
October 27, 2011
Justin has never implied that you can live any way you want and be saved. What I argue and am pretty sure Justin does the same is Christ Justifies, gives faith to his elect. Once God changes us the “good works” will come, but that is not a condition for our salvation.
Look at the thief on the cross. What good works did he do to be saved? His faith in Christ saved him and that is still the work of Christ and not the thief himself.
David
October 27, 2011
The idea that Catholics think that you have to do good works to be eligible for heaven is incorrect. What good works did the thief do? He defended Christ to the other theif.
Belief in Christ is one thing, participation in that belief is another. To the point, I used to believe that Jesus is Lord, but I lived life pretty much ignoring him, and not spending time getting to know Him. My action of belief is to learn more and more, and evangelize. But just because someone is baptised and says they believe in Christ is not enough. They must demonstrate that.
Look, I can’t get to heaven by helping a woman across the street or by spending my days reading the Bible. First I have to open my heart (that alone is a “work”) to allow God into my life. As St. James said “Faith without works is dead”. Meaning that taking the faith in without putting it out doesn’t qualify.
Justin Edwards
October 27, 2011
David, what does this verse mean:
1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
David
October 27, 2011
Taken in context, Paul is paradoxically asserting what he has been denying. (2:6-3:4)
To the Greeks who “are looking for wisdom” (1 Cor 1:22), he does bring a wisdom, but of a higher order and an entirely different quality, the only wisdom really worthy of the name. The Corinthians would grasp Paul’s preaching as wisdom and enter into a conversation (due to their recognition of his wisdom) with him if they were more open to the Spirit and receptive to the new insight and language that the Spirit teaches.
You cannot extract one verse and get the real meaning of it.
Billy Edwards
October 27, 2011
David,
Let me try one more time. All have sinned, save Jesus – Romans 3.23. Agreed? Sin kills – Romans 6.23. Agreed?
Now if you can agree with those 2 statements, then we can get somewhere. I have sinned. You have sinned. Cousin Justin has sinned. Thus, we all died – spiritually. What can dead men do? Nothing. Agreed? All the effort, enthusiasm, education, etc. is of absolutely no value to a dead man. What he needs – what we need – is life.
And that’s what Jesus came to give us – iife (John 10.10). That life is the new birth, salvation, if you will. Once we are made alive by Jesus, we are what Paul called NEW creations. We aren’t what we were. We have different motives, different goals, different desires, etc. While once we were governed by sin and Satan, we are now made NEW in Christ.
And because our desires, motives, and goals are new, we live according to new ideas – specifically, the ideas of Christ. We still battle the flesh – and thus we sin – but we don’t like it becuase it goes against our new nature.
Thus, our “works” – which are according to our new nature – do not save us, nor do they help Jesus save us – they are merely reflective of who we are in Christ once He made us alive – we are NEW. Those “works” do not save us – they happen according to who we are – alive and new in Christ.
That’s why a new creation – a man alive – can do what He wants. What He wants is what Christ wants. That’s what turns obedience from duty to worship.
As to your illustration about the devil, he is not going to heaven because he did no good works, but because he didn’t believe. There is a vast gulf between knowing and believing. The devil knows. He does not believe. I can absolutey know that a bungee will hold me up. But you can’t really say I believe it until I jump.
Likewise, I never said that all one had to do is say the words to be saved. In fact, I said the opposite.
And if you still hold to the meaning of your illustration with the kid and the candy, you are saying that you must pay for your sins. God help you, David – and I mean that – if you are willing to pay for your sins. David, Jesus did that for you. Let Him.
David
October 27, 2011
You’re right, up to a point. Paul also asks why, if he’s a new person who wants to do things according to what Christ wants, does he still do things Christ doesn’t want him to do. So, even though Paul was saved on the road to Damascus, he still has a sinful nature and can do bad things. So, even though we’re saved by Christ’s action on the cross, we must participate in that salvation. Christ died for all our sins, yes. But we must account for those sins before God, and will have to pay for them. First Corinthians 3:11-15 shows this.
Justin Edwards
October 27, 2011
David, will you watch this short video: http://vodpod.com/watch/5339851-1-cor-3-and-purgatory?u=airo&c=theologicaldoctrine
Keith Stevenson
October 27, 2011
all theological wrangling aside (put three like-minded christians into a church and end up with three different churches)…lol
Halloween gets it’s “bad” parts from your very own christian heritage…
originally celebrated by the ancient Celts as an end of summer festival, all the ‘dead’ stuff was added by the Catholic church in an effort to yet again co–opt a Pagan festival into christianity. And yes I know you don’t recognize the catholics as christians…but that doesn’t really matter.
Personally, I LOVE Halloween… best time of the year, Samhain and all that …
but now I’ve scared you, so I’ll quit.
David
October 28, 2011
Not true. For Christians and Jews feast days begin at sundown the evening before. So for the feast of All Saints, the evening before begins the feast, which was called, in olden times, All Hallows Day, the evening before was All Hallows Eve.
Michael W. Henry
October 29, 2011
I always am amazed that the Davids of the blogosphere are allowed to totally hijack threads. It becomes as if no one else exists or has a thought that matters. Their self absorption in getting any off track comment in knows no bounds.
David
October 31, 2011
What amazes me is how other Christians think they can pass of the Catholic Church as a fad. To say that Catholics aren’t Christian, simply because you don’t know or don’t want to know what they believe.
My purpose is to show the error of those kinds of thoughts and whenever someone makes an incorrect statement about the Catholic Church, I’m there to defend her.
I honestly don’t worry about converting you, I just want you to get your facts straight. Catholics are the original Christians, and all Christian thought stems from Catholicism, or disagreement with it.
nikki
November 5, 2011
this chart shows the major differences between RCC doctrines and Biblical doctrines. clearly, the man made doctrines of RCC contradict with God’s Word. so it boils down to whom you choose to believe, man or God?
http://op.50megs.com/ditc/CatholicChart.pdf