UPDATE: Desiring God has pulled the suggestion from its website regarding the practice of Lectio Divina. They state: “Update: Formerly I listed Lectio Divina as a third system for prayer. I’ve since removed it for the confusion it has caused. We do not endorse contemplative spirituality. The main point I’d like to recommend is using the text of Scripture as an organizer for our prayers — prayers that are exegetically faithful and gospel rich. I’m sorry for introducing the category.“
This is great news and I’m glad to see some accountability whatever the reason for removing this suggestion.
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And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” – Luke 10:27
UPDATE: Todd Friel covered this same concern on the Wretched daily clip today.
The blog world has been lit up since last week’s 2012 Passion Conference where John Piper stood on stage with other popular teachers to read the Word of God followed by silence and contemplation. As I do not wish to repeat what others have said on the subject, I’ll simply ask a few questions, provide some information, present the material in question, and let you decide with hopes of discussing these concerns.
Before we proceed, I’d like to caveat this post to say I have greatly benefited from John Piper on various issues and doctrinal teachings. While I have not hugely followed Piper in the past, I recognize his positive influence in the reformed tradition and that he is a highly respected pastor/teacher internationally. So I do not post this article as a witch hunt against John Piper, but this issue is just one more concern in a list of recent concerns over the last couple of years that should give us all pause to ask what is going on here. Unfortunately, I am finding I can less and less recommend John Piper because of the direction he seems to be going, and that is very sad to me. Nevertheless, we must be Bereans and examine all things in light of God’s Authority in the Scripture.
Let’s get started…
If Lectio Divina is defined by this:
In Christianity, Lectio Divina (Latin for divine reading) is a traditional Catholic practice of scriptural reading, meditation and prayer intended to promote communion with God and to increase the knowledge of God’s Word. It does not treat Scripture as texts to be studied, but as the Living Word (source).
If Lectio Divina is a “very ancient [Catholic] art…:
…practiced at one time by all Christians… – a slow, contemplative praying of the Scriptures which enables the Bible, the Word of God, to become a means of union with God. This ancient practice has been kept alive in the Christian monastic tradition, and is one of the precious treasures of Benedictine monastics and oblates. (source).
If in practice, Lectio Divina is this:
Lectio – Reading the Bible passage gently and slowly several times. The passage itself is not as important as the savoring of each portion of the reading, constantly listening for the “still, small voice” of a word or phrase that somehow speaks to the practitioner.
Meditatio – Reflecting on the text of the passage and thinking about how it applies to one’s own life. This is considered to be a very personal reading of the Scripture and very personal application.
Oratio – Responding to the passage by opening the heart to God. This is not primarily an intellectual exercise, but is thought to be more of the beginning of a conversation with God.
Contemplatio – Listening to God. This is a freeing of oneself from one’s own thoughts, both mundane and holy, and hearing God talk to us. Opening the mind, heart, and soul to the influence of God (source).
If a Roman Catholic explains how to “practice the presence of God” like this:
If the dangers of Lectio Divina are this:
Those who take this supernatural approach to the text can disconnect it from its context and natural meaning and use it in a subjective, individualistic, experiential, even name-it-and-claim-it way for which it was never intended…
…Naturally, the idea of having inside information is very appealing and makes the “knower” feel important, special and unique in that he/she has a special experience with God that no one else has. The “knower” believes that the masses are not in possession of spiritual knowledge and only the truly “enlightened” can experience God. Thus, the reintroduction of contemplative, or centering, prayer—a meditative practice where the focus is on having a mystical experience with God—into the Church. Contemplative prayer is similar to the meditative exercises used in Eastern religions and New Age cults and has no basis whatsoever in the Bible, although the contemplative pray-ers do use the Bible as a starting point.
Further, the dangers inherent in opening our minds and listening for voices should be obvious. The contemplative pray-ers are so eager to hear something—anything—that they can lose the objectivity needed to discern between God’s voice, their own thoughts, and the infiltration of demons into their minds…
Finally, the attack on the sufficiency of Scripture is a clear distinctive of lectio divina. Where the Bible claims to be all we need to live the Christian life (2 Timothy 3:16), lectio’s adherents deny that. Those who practice “conversational” prayers, seeking a special revelation from God, are asking Him to bypass what He has already revealed to mankind, as though He would now renege on all His promises concerning His eternal Word. Psalm 19:7-14 contains the definitive statement about the sufficiency of Scripture. It is “perfect, reviving the soul”; it is “right, rejoicing the heart”; it is “pure, enlightening the eyes”; it is “true” and “righteous altogether”; and it is “more desirable than gold.” If God meant all that He said in this psalm, there is no need for additional revelation, and to ask Him for one is to deny what He has already revealed (source).
If Emergent Church co-pope Tony Jones says this about Lectio Divina:
The idea is to experience the passage…It’s when we shine a spotlight on the word or phrase that’s grabbed our attention and really look at it from all sides. What does this word bring to mind? What does this phrase feel like for me?
…It’s the time when we need to let other thoughts and worries fall away…
Every time we do this with my youth group kids, they feel God says something…The first time I did this with the youth group was in our ninth-grade confirmation class. Every single kid heard something from God. Not one of them said, “Nothing stood out to me.” Not one kid thought it was lame. They didn’t all have some life-changing payoff, but every kid felt as though they had an encounter with the holiness of God…
This way of reading the Bible really lends itself to family devotions. Get rid of the big study Bible and the intense devotionals and get a Bible in a translation that lends itself to devotional reading, such as The Message. Then make it a family practice to do the Lectio Divina once a week (source).
If Lectio Divina is all of these things and more, why is John Piper promoting Lectio Divina on his website, Desiring God, here: A System for Praying in 2012
For a breakdown of the concerns, please see Christine Pack’s article here: John Piper Encouraging Lectio Divina
If Lectio Divina is being promoted on the Desiring God website, and with our understanding of Lectio Divina provided in this post, what is John Piper doing in the following videos along with Beth Moore, Lecrae, Francis Chan, and Louie Giglio:
If we know that one practicing Lectio Divina seeks to hear from the voice of God, to subjectively interpret what the Scriptures are saying and wait on an inner, perhaps audible voice from God, is this what Louie Giglio was referring to when he said:
How many of you heard the voice of God speak specifically, clearly, directly, and personally, to you? Can you just put a hand up? I’d like you to share it. Can you put a hand up for a minute?
Just want you to look around; that’s people saying, “God Almighty (pause) the Maker of heaven (pause) the one Who’s sitting on the only throne (pause) that’s not under threat (long pause, audience cheers)—He spoke to me. He spoke to me.”
“God spoke to me.” (long pause) Don’t let the voice of the darkness, tell you that you are not (pause) worth (pause) that God would not speak to you. (pause) Don’t let him tell you, you don’t matter. (pause) God spoke to you (source).
If we have come to learn that Lectio Divina is an ancient, Catholic monastery practice designed to “practice the presence of God” to hear the “still, small voice of God” in order to receive extra-biblical revelations from God, and John Piper is promoting this mystical Catholic practice on Desiring God, and John Piper joined a group on stage in what seems to be a form of Lectio Divina, and Louie Giglio seems to have confirmed this by declaring to the audience that they heard God speak to them – what do we make of all of this?
What do we do with John Piper? Is this cause for concern? Let’s talk about it…
airō 
Arpan
January 9, 2012
it is startling to have seen this. Truly there is no room for extra biblical revelations. It is shocking to see Mr Piper in support of such a practice. It is seriously shocking. On the contrary he is seen in the video to have just read a portion of scripture which seem OK but to be in support of a movement where people are encouraged to hear the voice of is like a new form of special revelation. The masses will be led to believe whatever their minds think of each thinking in its own context. Well seeing the crowd I am reminded of the verse
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
(2 Timothy 4:3-4)
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
For those visiting the blog, please allow me to pose additional questions.
What did Beth Moore, Lecrae, and John Piper mean when they said, respectively:
“Let’s pause and be still, and ask Jesus to speak His word to us.”
“Reflect. Hear from the Lord.”
“Let’s be quiet and ask the Lord to speak.”
And what did Louie Giglio mean when he said,
“How many of you heard the voice of God speak specifically, clearly, directly, and personally, to you? …God spoke to you.”
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
What does it mean to ask God to speak to us if He already spoke to us through the written text? Honest questions folks.
Josh Elsom
January 9, 2012
“…the Bible claims to be all we need to live the Christian life (2 Timothy 3:16)…Psalm 19:7-14 contains the definitive statement about the sufficiency of Scripture.”
If Psalm 19:7-14 meant that God could not speak outside of Scripture then we might not even have 2 Timothy 3:16.
Why? Because Timothy might have never become a pastor without extra-biblical revelation.
[Timothy] Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you. – 1 Timothy 4:14
No prophecy, Timothy is not a pastor. No Pastor Tim, no letters from Paul.
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
Thanks for the comment, Josh. Is 1 Timothy 4:14 not part of the closed canon? Did that event take place under Apostolic authority?
Josh Elsom
January 9, 2012
1 Timothy 4:14 certainly is part of the closed canon, however, the prophecy that the elders in Antioch received on behalf of Timothy was not, though the event as it happened is recorded in Scripture.
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
It still happened under Apostolic authority, which does not exist today. In any case, are you suggesting that we too can receive special revelation? Thanks for the discussion, Josh.
Adam Smith
January 9, 2012
Just because God chose to give a prophecy in Timothy’s case, does not then make it normative. Yes, God has spoken outside the pages of scripture throughout history. Does this mean then we ought to seek out special personal messages from God through mystical practice? IMO any special message from the LORD needs to be weighed by the church (see 1 Cor. 14:29).
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
Amen, Adam.
Josh Elsom
January 9, 2012
“Just because God chose to give a prophecy in Timothy’s case, does not then make it normative.”
For the record, I was not defending listening prayer I was only questioning the premise of the author’s argument, namely, that extra-biblical revelation necessarily is means that Scripture is insufficient.
Adam Smith
January 9, 2012
JE – So noted. I am not saying that God never spoke outside the pages of scripture. Clearly he did so. Many prophecies in the OT for example probably were never recorded. Another example is that many of the words of Jesus were not recorded. It wasn’t a common occurrence. IMO we shouldn’t take something unusual and make it a normative practice. We have plenty of revelation in the pages of scripture to meditate on, obey, believe, etc. I ask myself whether or not I am obeying the light I already do have. I don’t need to seek out additional light. I am grateful for what I do have. I’m not sure you got the premise correct. Any true extra-biblical revelation would agree with and confirm scripture. It would necessarily be on a lower level of authority. Why? Because we are to test according to the scripture.
Josh Elsom
January 9, 2012
Agreed. The author presupposes cessationism and tries to argue that Lectio Divina is unbiblical because it violates the cessationist notion of sufficiency. It’s certainly a red meat argument for the cessationist camp that’ll get them excited but no continuist worth his theological salt is going to buy the argument.
Lectio Divina, if it be wrong, needs to be argued against presupposing the ongoing prophetic work of the Spirit in His Church. That is, if one is genuinely interested in reaching the vast majority of people who actually practice Lectio Divina. Cessationists, if it has not yet been realized, are not the ones practicing listening prayer. Therefore, the author would do well to familiarize himself with what Scripture says about the practice and measure of prophecy. Continuists, much to the surprise of many cessationists, really do care about what Scripture teaches. You show them how Lectio Divina violates the prophetic protocol as outlined by Paul and they will stop.
For that reason Adam, I think your argument will be far more effective.
Kevin Marthins
January 9, 2012
Some great points Adam.
Adam Smith
January 9, 2012
I too find this promotion of mysticism disturbing. It is as if we are not satisfied with what God has told us to do and to understand, we crave some mystical experience where God speaks to us directly. We are not content to serve the Lord faithfully, but to be another Moses on the mountaintop. Since I encountered contemplative prayer about 5 years ago, I have always felt like it did not line up with scripture. Believing the truth and acting on the truth is what counts, not some emotional experience.
Broken Hearted
January 9, 2012
I love the fact that we are so concerned with tearing down our fellow followers of God because they are not just like us…seems there are several billion lost souls still waiting to hear the good news and we would rather hurl biased accusations and from the distance and not seek any context or understanding from one another. It is no wonder the vast majority of the lost world looks at us as Christians as being narrow-minded, intolerant, and irrelevant
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
Who is tearing down who, BH? The very purpose of this post is to start a discussion as to what we are observing here in order to understand “context and understanding”. So with that, could you please respond to the material such as that being promoted on the DG website, namely Lectio Divina?
Adam Smith
January 9, 2012
BH – In the spirit of the reformation, Christians ought to examine the practices of the church to see if they line up with scripture. It is neither tearing down another brother, nor is it biased, narrow-minded, intolerant or irreverent. It is responsible. this is why the principle of sola-scriptura is so important. We are in danger of spiritual ruin when we allow non-biblical practices into the church. IMO a blog is a great forum to examine such issues. I think the spirit of JE’s post is commendable. He obviously cares about the purity and faithfulness of the church.
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
Thanks, brother, and amen again.
Broken Hearted
January 9, 2012
The very fact that you are getting defensive right now and want to continue a “discussion” about this specific issue proves my point. We want to spend our time determining who is in violation of our opinion of what “sola scriptura” means. We want to go through this process of defining down what is “orthodox” and what is not so that our circle becomes smaller and smaller. All the while as we look for the boogeyman that is lurking in our pews and pulpits, we are neglecting the weightier matters of bringing the light of the Gospel into a lost and dying world. And if you are on whis whole kick against all things mystical, better watch out for some of those visions that the prophets, Peter, and John had, (not to mention the story Paul shares in 2 Corinthians 12).
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
Not defensive at all, BH. I’m just looking for rational discussion and hope you would join us. Having this discussion does not mean we cannot also preach the Gospel. Frankly, we should be doing both in hopes to defend the faith, teach sound doctrine, and proclaim the unadulterated Gospel of Christ.
Thomas S. Barnes
January 9, 2012
Not to stir up a hornets nest, but as I am reading through this article I am dumbfounded and wondering what Beth Moore is there. Was she teaching men?
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
Well, although another can of worms, I do think that’s part of the issue, Thomas. She’s been teaching men.
Paula Coyle
January 9, 2012
But but but… she’s been called by God, everyone says (including her…) 0.o
Mitch
January 9, 2012
I wanted to make a comment about this. I was there in attendance at the Passion conference this year myself I found it strange in a way when they did that with asking God to speak to you in a personal way before- although I did not participate too much in it (other than reading along with them) I didn’t raise a hand or anything when they asked if God spoke to you because I have never heard such a thing until they mentioned it (didn’t know it was called Lectio Divina at the time either)
I do want to comment also that in some ways God does call us to mediate on us His Word daily to let it transform our lives & way of thinking – meditation goes beyond just reading the Bible it involves personal application & prayer also –
part of the practice of reading & mediation part I don’t have a problem with it’s the emotional/pitch they put in there I had issues with. Normally I’m like you I don’t have problem with John Piper in fact his message at the conference was pretty good (talking about Seeing & Savoring Christ in our lives & Jesus is Supreme over all & what that means/ect)
Just be careful with this it’s a touchy issue Bro
Justin Edwards
January 9, 2012
Thanks so much for your comment, brother Mitch. It is very helpful to the discussion since you were there. No doubt most people will not share your concern, but I’m thankful to hear of your discernment during this time.
I absolutely agree about biblical meditation, a mindful meditation of the Scripture. But this seemed to go beyond this at Passion, and certainly does in the case of Lectio Divina as found on the DG website (which is the same definitions given as those found on Catholic and mystic sources).
It is indeed a touchy issue – I’m finding out just how touchy lol…thanks again, brother.
John Humphries
January 9, 2012
The purpose of this discussion is not to malign the body, which would quench the Holy Spirit, but rather to warn the flock of the the leaven which has been found creeping into the fold. It is a Numbers 25 dilemma, and since judgment begins at the house of the Lord, here is an extreme analogy, which presents a parallel warning to act.
The Jews began to practice idolatry with Moabite women; Israel began to worship Baal (the pagan fertility god by laying with temple priestesses, thus violating God’s commandment in Ex 20:5 generally and specifically), kindling God’s anger against them. The Lord instructed Moses to kill the offenders and put them on display for all to see, that the Lord’s wrath may be turned away from Israel.
Moses instructed the “judges” of Israel (the shepherd’s of the flock) to kill everyone who had joined himself to Baal. When Phineas saw in his tribe a man with a Midianite woman, he ran them both through with a javelin, thus assuaging the Lord’s anger and turning the Lord’s wrath away from Israel. The name of the two violators are specifically noted in scripture (Num 25:14,15 ) that their sins would not be repeated.
In so doing Phineas (a shepherd of Israel) showed God that he took Him at His word, and was not willing to turn the other way by remaining silent on the issue of false doctrine. This blog does the same thing by exposing false doctrine for what it is and is therefore alerting the flock of its presence and edifying them so they do not fall prey to its teachings. This blog is not out to “kill” the teacher of false doctrine, but rather to reduce or eliminate their ability to spew their teachings unchecked by calling into question their methodology against the light of scripture.
Paul’s letters to the Corinthians is ever warning of the Judaeizers, which were believing Jews preaching adherence to the Levitical law as a supplement to the gospel. Paul confronts them and even Peter himself was confronted by Paul regarding the doctrine of circumcision (Act 15, Gal 2:11). Paul instructs Timothy to “rightly divide the word of truth, but shun vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness”, and reminds him that “all scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”. Even Peter later admonishes us by prohesying against false teaching, in 2 Pet 2:1,2. I praise God for such a medium to address these serious doctrinal issues and edify the body of Christ.
Justin Edwards
January 10, 2012
Wise words, brother. People forget how holy God is (none of us are immune to doing that by the way), and these examples from the OT are helpful reminders. Thank you also for your supporting words and, quite frankly, expressing my desire for this blog to be a place where these matters can be discussed in an open forum. I may not have all the answers, and do not profess to, but am thankful we have a place here to pose questions and respectfully and maturely discuss these things with each other using God’s Word as our guide. Glory to Christ!
Paula Coyle
January 9, 2012
Amen.
If there is silence, the Word of God is not going forth. What a brilliant trick people are falling for. Either babble incoherently and laugh, or be silent. In either case, God’s worth is not going forth. And Satan convinces us this is the route to ‘deeper’ spirituality. Hogwash.
Tracey
January 9, 2012
Loved what you said John Humphries!
Shouldn’t when we meditate on God’s Word though, be done alone? As in Psalm 4:4, it states to “commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still.”
1Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.
2O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.
3But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.
4Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.
I used to be a Beth Moore addict. After realizing I was starting to place her on a pedestal and was becoming an idol to me, I backed away immediately. My prayer is for other women to realize this in their own lives as well. These people become elevated because “we” put them there. And I truly believe if Beth told ladies to jump, they would ask “how high?”
If she is leaning into this mysticism stuff then many more will simply fall in, because of the messenger, unfortunately.
Tracey
January 9, 2012
When I used the word “though” it wasn’t in argument of anything anyone has stated so far…just wanted to make myself clear..it could be read wrong. Just asking that for clarification…when we are to meditate on God’s Word.
Adam Smith
January 10, 2012
Here are a few verses that might be useful:
Psa 1:2 but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.
Psa 55:17 Evening and morning and at noon I utter my complaint and moan, and he hears my voice.
Psa 105:4 Seek the LORD and his strength; seek his presence continually!
Psa 119:164 Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous rules.
Psa 130:6 my soul waits for the Lord more than watchmen for the morning, more than watchmen for the morning.
Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!
Pro 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
So it would seem that we ought to seek the Lord continually and part of that is meditating on his Word. To me meditation means to think about something, not to empty one’s mind and seek out impressions. I always go back to John 8:31-32:
Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Also take Abram:
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
Notice he believed what the LORD has spoken to him.
Tracey
January 10, 2012
Do you think in reference to Gen 15:5, that these people are also ‘wanting’ that Abram experience because the Lord spoke to him personally? Are they thinking that the Lord is going to specifically tell them His Will during these meditation times? I think the problem would also be that if they started all sharing “The Lord told me this was going to happen…”
This is where I get confused a bit because the Scriptures do say “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:” Joel 2:28.
Where or when, do you trust what is being prophesied?
Thanks for sharing!
Adam Smith
January 10, 2012
I see your question. I think that God does occasionally speak to individuals. When he did so in scripture, most of the time it was through an angel or a dream or a vision. Do people want this kind of direct experience today? Yeah I think that’s what motivates folks to seek out mystical experiences. For the most part, however we ought to study the Word and seek God’s wisdom in order to apply it to our lives. I’m not a cessasionist, but I think to constantly seek out the mystical is unhealthy. I think overall it’s rare. God may clearly speak to us once or twice in our life times. We may get a clear impression or leading from the Holy Spirit. I think the apostles and OT prophets were especially gifted like this. Like I wrote elsewhere, I think we have more than enough revelation in the Bible that we are challenged to believe, obey, think about, etc.
Mary Elizabeth Tyler
January 10, 2012
As long as I have been around the blogosphere, the current word is that no one is willing to separate over tertiary issues. And trying to nail down some of these issues is like nailing jell-o to a wall (for some, but not all). I posted this the other day on fb, as this is what my observations have led me to believe.
It seems the one’s that get caught up in charismania are the first to start slip sliding away. However, if I am not mistaken, many solid, Reformed types, still recommend Piper’s works and are friends with him. FEW are willing to go the secondary separation route. When the Warren-gate and Driscoll-gate mess started looming larger than life, and rolling hot off the presses, I started to take a different view of John Piper. Much to my sadness, as he is a brilliant thinker, and has such depth perception when it comes to God’s Word.
The book Desiring God is a monumental achievement in JP’s life, as well as many of his books (I have most of them). He draws so much insight from past Reformers and puritans, like Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, Martin Luther and countless others from those eras. Plus, his insights alone are truly remarkable in and of themselves. I know John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, Phil Johnson, Dan Phillips, and many other solid cessationists, and also many graduates from The Masters Seminary still support him, BUT, I’m assuming are still cautious. (I have followed this drama from day one!).
But there again, this slipping seems to take hold within the charismatic movement more than any other movement. I think of Wayne Grudem, who so many cessationists agree that his Systematic Theology is an excellent piece of work (I have it), minus his charismatic leanings. Then there is J.I. Packer, solid cessationist (his classic work, Knowing God), and even he signed the Manhattan Declaration and I believe the ECT document. Anyone who plays footsie with Rome better know that God is NOT pleased. At one time, I had a complete list of all the men and women who signed these traitorous documents, and was absolutely dumb struck by who actually signed these papers.
We always want things in black and white; clearly articulated; lines carefully drawn in the sand, as to who is Biblically solid and who is not. But the vagaries and the unpredictable and erratic actions and thoughts of some of these seemingly solid theologians/pastors, help to keep us alert and keep us forever entrenched in God’s holy Word. I think the message is CLEAR from on high, men will ALWAYS fail us, but God is our rock and high tower forever (Psa 18:2).”
pam
January 10, 2012
All of this seems very “me” centered. What can God do for me, what can He tell me. I, me, must be special because God speaks to me. God has spoken thru His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The whole idea of Christians trying to hear from God, externally, when the Holy Spirit lives in us seems goofy. Christians are “in Christ”. What level of intimacy with God are these people trying to reach? I mean, if you are in Christ…….
We are told that we live by faith and that faith is in what is in the Word of God. Why would we need “extra” revelation?
As a former Catholic, I say,”stay away from this”. Remember Satan comes as an angel of light. When you open your mind to other voices,who knows who might be speaking to you. Why is the Word of God not enough? In the film clips, they read from the Word of God and instead of expounding on THAT Word, they say, be silent and let God speak to you. Well, guess what ?, He just did. And how did He do that? THRU HIS WORD!!!!
We should pray for these people and hope that they see their error and stop deluding the masses. It looks like the Reformed are on the road to Rome. Of course, that is just my two cents worth and for some that is probably all its worth.
God bless us all.
Tracey
January 10, 2012
Sola Fide (by faith alone)
Sola Scriptura (by Scripture alone)
Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Solo Christo (through Christ alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (to God alone be the glory)
If these people truly relied on the statements above from the Reformation in regards to Truth, then they wouldn’t need to look any further….correct?
Justin Edwards
January 10, 2012
Someone posted this on Wretched’s wall that might be helpful to the discussion here: http://phillipjohnson.blogspot.com/2006/01/youre-probably-cessationist-too.html
Tracey
January 10, 2012
After reading the link, does that mean that there are Believers today who don’t believe in healing as well, in the form of a miracle? Just trying to grasp what is being said.
Justin Edwards
January 10, 2012
I suppose there are people who believe there are no miracles today, but I’m not one of them. God is the Great Physician and does heal today, but I don’t believe there are “healers” like we see in the signs and wonders crowd ala Todd Bentley.
Tracey
January 10, 2012
I agree with that…I don’t believe that some that claim they have that gift, have it, like in your example of Todd Bentley. He divorcing his wife and marrying his mistress and continuing back “in ministry” should have been proof enough for people in that boat.
Josh Elsom
January 10, 2012
From a Reformed Charismatic’s perspective:
There is a difference between Sola Scriptura and Solus Libri. That understanding of Sola Scriptura, which binds God’s mouth and displaces the Biblical imperative to seek the greater gifts, especially that we may prophecy, ought to be rejected.
The Solas are useful theological boundary markers that guard the Church against error. However, they are neither inerrant nor inspired. They are the tradition of men and the point at which this tradition binds our consciences and nullifies God’s commands we are in serious trouble. (Mark 7:13) The spirit of the Solas was to protect the Church, not hem her in or keep the Spirit out.
Semper Reformanda!
Tracey
January 10, 2012
I see your point. I’m enjoying this conversation…digging deep because I want to follow correctly just the same. Thanks for sharing.
When I read the link, I, in my humble knowledge, placed myself in the “Reformed Charismatic’s title” because I do believe that God never changes, nor His power. “We” have changed. I believe we could see the same results in our prayers today, as the apostles did, but we have allowed too many other hindrances in our lives that prevent His power from working through us. That is my humble opinion though and may not be the same for everyone else. “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:” Eph 1:17
After just going through Christmas and that entire conversation in regards to living according to the Word and not pagan traditions of men, it makes me ponder and examine myself, according to Scripture.
I’m thankful for the iron sharpening! :o)
Josh Elsom
January 10, 2012
Me too. : )
I highly recommend reading “Are Miraculous Gifts for Today?: 4 Views” edited by Wayne Grudem. It gives a balanced representation of each of the views, ranging from Cessationism to Pentecostalism.
Tracey
January 10, 2012
Thanks Josh. Is this online? Or in book form only?
I grew up under the WoF movement and saw the errors of it as I became an adult. I am 40 years old now. My parents are still followers though. One thing I didn’t like was the expectation of everyone having all the gifts and that if you didn’t, you weren’t where they were, sort of thinking. Do I believe they are still available, yes. Do I have them all, no.
I do believe that the gift of speaking in tongues is greatly mis used today but I’m not going to say that it doesn’t exist anymore. This is an area that, in my opinion, could be similar to what they are doing in the videos above. Forcing something to happen and then saying things that aren’t necessarily of God, just to feel like you are “part of it.”
I would describe myself as a “Discerning Pentecostal” who follows Christ Jesus. ;o)
I sense that Justin’s heart is to rightly divide the truth in love and I admire that about him. We are all ever learning. Philippians 2 “being of one accord, of one mind…”
Josh Elsom
January 10, 2012
http://www.amazon.com/Miraculous-Gifts-Today-Wayne-Grudem/dp/0310201551
You can get it in print or on Kindle, if you should be so blessed to own one.
Let love be our aim.
Justin Edwards
January 10, 2012
“Let love be our aim.” Always, and thanks for your respectful candor in this thread, brother.
Josh Elsom
January 10, 2012
“Like” : )
Tracey
January 10, 2012
What am I Justin, “chopped liver?” ;o) Is it because I’m a “sister” and not a brother?? LOL I’m not against you in this either. :o)
Justin Edwards
January 10, 2012
lol…not at all. I’m enjoying this discussion as well and we all have plenty to learn. 🙂
Justin Edwards
January 10, 2012
Are you referring to Phil Johnson’s link, Tracey?
Tracey
January 10, 2012
Which of my comments Justin? The one about asking about certain healings being miracles? Yes, that was my question in regards to Phil’s Blog…does he not believe that miracles still do take place today?
If he were to mention in his blog- in light of Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley, etc…then I would agree with Phil in that manner. But to outright say that miracles no longer exist today, I wouldn’t agree with that. Maybe I just interpreted his blog incorrectly?
Justin Edwards
January 10, 2012
The one where you stated, “When I read the link, I, in my humble knowledge, placed myself in the “Reformed Charismatic’s title” because I do believe that God never changes, nor His power.”
In any case, I believe Phil would agree with my previous assertion that God performs miracles, but they’re are no apostolic healers today. Here’s Phil on the matter for others to consider:
“Jack Deere, former Dallas Seminary prof-turned charismatic advocate, likewise admits in his book Surprised by the Power of the Holy Spirit (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1993), that he has not seen anyone today performing miracles or possessing gifts of the same quality as the signs and wonders of the apostolic era. In fact, Deere argues vehemently throughout his book that modern charismatics do not even claim to have apostolic-quality gifts and miracle-working abilities. One of Deere’s main lines of defense against critics of the charismatic movement is his insistence that modern charismatic gifts are actually lesser gifts than those available in the apostolic era, and therefore, he suggests, they should not be held to apostolic standards.
“Again, consider the implications of that claim: Deere and Grudem have, in effect, conceded the entire cessationist argument. They have admitted that they are themselves cessationists of sorts. They believe that the true apostolic gifts and miracles have ceased, and they are admitting that what they are claiming today is not the same as the charismata described in the New Testament.
“In other words, modern charismatics have already adopted a cessationist position. When pressed on the issue, all honest charismatics are forced to admit that the “gifts” they receive today are of lesser quality than those of the apostolic era.
“Contemporary tongues-speakers do not speak in understandable or translatable dialects, the way the apostles and their followers did at Pentecost. Charismatics who minister on the foreign mission-field are not typically able to preach the gospel miraculously in the tongues of their hearers. Charismatic missionaries have to go to language school like everyone else.
“If all sides already acknowledge that there are no modern workers of signs and wonders who can really duplicate apostolic power, then we have no actual argument about the principle of cessationism, and therefore all the frantic demands for biblical and exegetical support for cessationism are superfluous. The real gist of our disagreement boils down only to a question of degree.
“In a very helpful book, Satisfied by the Promise of the Spirit (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1996), Thomas Edgar writes,
The charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people this is why they are credible today. Yet now one of their primary defenses is the claim that [the gifts] are not the same [as those in the New Testament.] Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence. (p. 32)
“As for biblical arguments, in Scripture itself, there is ample evidence that miracles were extraordinary, rare events, usually associated in some significant way with people who spoke inspired and infallible utterances. It is obvious from the biblical narrative that miracles were declining in frequency even before the apostolic era drew to a close. Scripture says the miracles were apostolic signs (2 Corinthians 12:12), and therefore by definition they pertained specifically and uniquely to the apostolic era.”
Tracey
January 10, 2012
OK, I see your point…he was making reference to Believers today not having the same gift of healing as the apostles did, not stating that he didn’t believe God doesn’t heal anymore. Thanks for that clarification.
Mark Cassidy
February 25, 2012
You’re right -that is indeed all its’a worth
Tracey
January 10, 2012
John 10:26 (NIV): Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name SPEAK FOR ME,
I thought that was pretty interesting.
Tracey
January 10, 2012
The above Scripture is in response to them having “Jesus, speak to me.” on the huge signs behind their heads at Passion 2012.
pam
January 10, 2012
Toward the end of the apostolic era, even Paul could not heal ie:Timothy and his stomach aliment.
The signs were instituted for the Jews to prove to them who Jesus was according to the prophecies that were written about Him. They should have recognized Him by those signs. Even Jesus said to them “you always need a sign”. Then during the Book of Acts the signs and wonders continued thru the apostles as they began to preach the Gospel.
Didn’t Paul talk about the time for signs and wonders was about to cease in 1Cor.13.
If anyone cares.
pam
Tracey
January 10, 2012
Hey Justin, is there another route to access Todd’s radio link? I could not open it, it’s just a black screen. Thanks.
Tracey
January 10, 2012
Never mind….I found it via going through FB. :o)
Justin Edwards
January 10, 2012
Perhaps some clarification on what John Piper’s intentions were at Passion. More questions, more hope for discussion: https://airocross.com/2012/01/10/on-john-piper-hearing-from-god/
Tracey
January 11, 2012
It appears John Piper removed the Lectio Divina on the Desiring God website and posted a few comments…
Update: Formerly I listed Lectio Divina as a third system for prayer. I’ve since removed it for the confusion it has caused. We do not endorse contemplative spirituality. The main point I’d like to recommend is using the text of Scripture as an organizer for our prayers — prayers that are exegetically faithful and gospel rich. I’m sorry for introducing the category.
Jeff Baxter
January 11, 2012
Thanks for posting. This is very disturbing and heartbreaking. We need to keep researching. Does anyone know the “backstory”? It makes me wonder if Giglio put Piper up to this. Piper knows better as his sermons and books speak against not using proper Biblical Interpretation etc. Moore has been speaking of her own extra-Biblical visions for quite sometime. I wonder where Chan is in this too? There is always more to the story. None-the-less, they are hanging dangerously close to the edge of the mystical cliff.
Tracey
January 11, 2012
I have questioned Louie Giglio since his “Indescribable” videos started hitting the screens in Sunday morning services. I wonder if these videos did more damage then good, I mean did we need to see “proof” in order to confirm our faith? It was the band wagon of feelings and emotions again….
Beloved Child of God
January 13, 2012
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Read if you so desire. It’s lengthy.
God is a miracle working, all-powerful, always Present and all-knowing God. The first and last! The great I AM! We are to worship Him in spirit and in truth. The scriptures are His! He will speak as He will. Man’s need to define things is idolatrous. Do we think WE have a HANDLE on who God is!?! Do we think we know so much?
Ha. I used to think so. Somewhere along the years I realized that somehow I came to believe that anything I learned about God and the Bible between birth and my early twenties was all there is to know. Yep! I knew it all! If someone had a different thought…”HERETIC!” If someone laid hands on someone and prayed for their healing, they were suspect too. After all, didn’t they know that the proper way to go to God with these things is to submit them to the church via the little card in the bulletin or raise ones hand at prayer meeting to make your requests known? I grew up in a fundamental Baptist church. I am very thankful for the scripture’s that I learned and the songs, hymns and spiritual songs that God continues to use in my life. “In my heart there rings a melody!” I am so thankful that that song and many others is now true…for years I wanted them to be! I sang them in faith that maybe one day…
I am very thankful that the LORD is my Shepherd and because of Him I shall not want.
Many reject the idea that God still speaks. Many think that all they need is to read scripture and then pull themselves up by their boot straps…THEIR bootstraps…THEIR pulling. And if YOU don’t get your act together, well shame on you! All the while brothers and sisters in the pew next to us are broken, hurting, confused by why they are not forsaking sin, why sin has a hold on them, why there seem to be have’s and have not’s spiritually in God’s house and they aren’t about to reveal their struggle because then we would be afraid of them and reject them or politely send them to another church where no one knows about “their sin issue” so no one is afraid of them.
Religiosity has become sanctioned as “The Way” within the last hundred years or so. Man has elevated his own mind above and separated out from his emotions as superior. God created both! Many a person thinks he/she has no need of God’s still small voice and Presence in his own eyes (though they would say they do…they just don’t hear Him, cause we “can’t” save through His Word.) He/she thinks his intellect is taking him to the Throne.
“Sure, God is ‘present’ everywhere…” .dare I say that some think of Him as present merely in the sense that air is present? We usually don’t think about it, take it for granted and barely pay much homage to it. Radio waves are present. Isn’t that one of the things we tell unbelievers when trying to explain God’s Omnipresence to them? God is PRESENT..within and all around us! He is more Present and real than the spouse or child you may have just been angry with or spoken a casual “good morning” to today. Do we dare believe that and act on that? “Good morning Lord. YOU are here with me. I am never alone…even if I were in a concentration camp, YOU would keep me and I will bless Your Holy Name! Real, Present, vital to our existence…not merely to be read about, pondered and wait for eternity to have REAL worship. DO I dare live in this?
“Be still and know that He is God.”
I know of many an evangelical and reformed theology (et al) child of God in our day who struggle against the flesh, are losing the battle daily, go to groups and cling to the other tormented souls there hoping that tomorrow they will “get it right.” I used to be one of them, though I suffered alone in it. I heard what brothers and sisters had to say about others who had “real sin issues”. I wasn’t lining myself up for target practice. Oh yeah. And when I finally had to speak, when I finally came forward to reveal what my struggles were, I was told I needed to go through “restoration.” Restoration meant outside christian counsel whether I had the money for it or not, removal from ministry until I was “better” and “truly repentant” and then being ostracized by former close friends. And how sad they were for me. Seriously. They expressed sorrow that I was such a forlorn sinner…and after all these years! I had looked to our Pastor like a Dad and still love and respect him so much. He was filled with sorrow and then barely spoke much to me at all after that. One would think I would be way more sanctified and “know better” after such care so…guess I just had to accept it. I blew it. All my fault. People are right to reject me. Who was I to expect anything from anyone anymore? And yet GOD!!!….
The Lord’s ways are higher! He knew my heart. He knew my sin. He knew I needed HIM…a relationship with Him and not the rules!. (A relationship with Him means living to honor Him in all! This is beyond the law! It can only happen by Him and through Him…not in keeping the rules.) He moved me geographically. The Lord made the way when there was no way. I had cried out to Him and He heard my voice and answered me. I learned of people that believed God is truly all-powerful, living and active in our lives today not only saving but TRANSFORMING and glad to see that God is refining me, that He graciously revealed what had been in my heart all along and needed to be sanctified! I was afraid to believe it could be true. I was afraid that I would add some kind of heresy to my struggles with sin and the flesh. The Lord led me. He has brought healing, deliverance, hope, an outpouring of the fruit of the Spirit, changed my life and is making me whole! Joy, joy and more joy in HIM! Hallelujah!
“By their fruits you shall know them.” Some continue in in their struggles, chained by the idea that they must simply read God’s Word and then they can choose to obey and they will walk in the spirit. God’s Word is Living , powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword! It is absolute Truth FOREVER! Yet there are those who are trying so hard, reading His Word, weeping, falling when the next stressor blasts them and then filled with shame and despair. Do you know of any? How many do you think are sitting next to us each week but are too afraid of rejection…or worse…that they will come forward, things won’t change and then they think they are out of hope and just destined to walk through time as disgraces to their families and churches (whether their families know or not, that soul does.) Are they not trying hard enough? Do they just need to “memorize a little more Scripture?” What is your prescription for this world in need? What will you tell that one who is so broken? Tell them why they are not free! Ask them what it feels like to go day after day and be so dry, worn out, and weary of struggling with sin, sin that they hate. Sin that causes them to question whether they even are saved for after all, how can sin be reigning in their mortal bodies if they are truly born again? Twenty years later? Thirty? Still ensnared?
You never have had that problem or this? That is wonderful for you. Be careful lest you are overtaken some day. Have you known some who have been freed by studying the Scriptures and memorizing them, and that alone? Amen!!! But we must remember it is not by might, nor by power but by “My Spirit” says the Lord of Hosts!
Beth Moore, Giglio, Piper… people put all sorts of things and people on idolatrous thrones of their own choosing and making….we want to categorize people and put them into neat little boxes when they say things foreign to our ears, like that they sit and listen for God’s voice. “My sheep know my voice.” Do we? Are we even listening for His voice? Should we not be? Can we not trust Him to make His voice known since He said it can be?
“Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. I Cor. 1.13. “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?”
Some believe that God does not speak outside of Scripture and yet then say, “God is leading me to do this.” “God has prompted me to do that.” When one dear brother was asked to clarify his statement that God does not speak outside of scripture in light of the fact that he has said the Lord had led him to do something very personal and detailed he said, “Well that was Holy Spirit.” Um…yeah.
Brothers and sisters can have their full of trying to intellectually know all there is to know. God is beyond our intellect. His ways are higher! We KNOW this! The Scripture’s tell us it is so! God is awesome and amazing and not limited to our knowledge of Him in our particular segment of God’s body of believer’s.
Word of God speak! Holy Spirit have Your way! Father, Savior, Shepherd, lead us. Deliver us from a need to KNOW you merely in our minds but to follow you with all our heart, mind and soul!
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him against that day. Glory to God in the Highest!
Hutch
January 16, 2012
I have a question, and I mean this in a non threatening way, but were any of you there at passion? If you said so in a post I appologize for not seeing it. I haven’t had time yet to closely look at the entire thread.
Thanks 🙂
Justin Edwards
January 17, 2012
Yes, Mitch was at Passion.
Speedy Gates
February 1, 2013
I think this is being taking out of context!
Justin Edwards
February 5, 2013
How so, Speedy? Do you hear from God?