There was a time when I would have questioned someone’s patriotism or dedication to righteousness if they did not vote for the Republican candidate. I’ve only voted in three previous presidential elections, but I remember each time accusing other Christians of failing in their civic duty and Christian responsibility to “vote for the person Jesus would vote for”. I was influenced by American Christian tradition and religious right-wing conservatism to believe that the Democratic party was the evil of all evils and we mustn’t let them win an election at all costs.
As if there was a divine imperative for the Christian community to keep liberals out of the White House because humanity would be destroyed if this happened, I did my patriotic duty to vote for the Republican. Interestingly enough, I was a false convert during those days, so it’s somewhat comical to consider some of the arguments I used to persuade other Christians they were sinning for not voting for the right guy (or because they chose to not vote at all). I now find myself on the other side of the fence in the not-voting-for-the-Republican-either category, which is one reason why I posted this article as a “pre-article” to this one (please be sure to read that as it addresses common arguments some are using to persuade Christians to vote for Mitt Romney).
I’ve delayed writing this article because I’ve struggled with the necessity to do so, sometimes just wanting to forget about it, delete the first article, keep my opinion to myself, and move on. But as I am not the only one struggling with what to do this November, I conclude that it may be helpful for others to “hear my thoughts” on the matter as to why I am voting against the conservative, religious-right norm.
So without further delay, here are the reasons I will not be voting for Mitt Romney in 2012:
1. Mormonism
Some Christians do not see a problem with voting for a Mormon. I know there are godly men and women who consider Romney’s Mormonism to not be an issue for them, and that is OK. However, Romney’s Mormonism is an issue for me. It is not just that Mitt Romney is a Mormon, or “lay Mormon”, or a Mormon who might not really understand all there is to know about Mormonism (I heard people make this excuse for Glenn Beck a couple years ago), but Mitt Romney is a Mormon of Mormons. In fact, according to Boston.com,
Romney was a bishop in the Boston suburb of Belmont, a job akin to the pastor of a congregation. He then served as a stake president, the top Mormon authority in his region, which meant he presided over several congregations in a district similar to a diocese…He counseled Latter-day Saints on their most personal concerns, regarding marriage, parenting, finances and faith.
So Mitt Romney is no ordinary Mormon. He knows the Mormon faith inside and out, and if he is faithful to the Mormon religion as it appears he is, we can assume his Mormon beliefs will inform his decision-making in all areas of life, including leadership as the President of the United States of America. Informing decisions is what worldviews do, and my understanding of Romney’s Mormon worldview precludes me from voting for him.
In an effort to keep this article as short as possible, I will simply refer you to a few items for you to research on your own:
Mormons believe the Constitution of the United States is a divinely inspired document:
We say that God is true; that the Constitution of the United States is true; that the Bible is true; that the Book of Mormon is true; that the Book of Covenants is true; that Christ is true; that the ministering angels sent forth from God are true, and that we know that we have an house not made with hands eternal in the heavens, whose builder and maker is God.
Mormons believe God was once a man, and they shall become gods themselves:
Here, then, is eternal life–to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.
It was Joseph Smith who has been quoted as having said that the time would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread and at that time when it was thus in jeopardy, the elders of this Church would step forth and save it from destruction.
Why the elders of this Church? Would it be sacrilegious to paraphrase the words of the Apostle Peter, and say that the Constitution of the United States could be saved by the elders of this Church because this Church and this Church alone has the words of eternal life? We alone know by revelation as to how the Constitution came into being, and we, alone, know by revelation the destiny of this nation. The preservation of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” can be guaranteed upon no other basis than upon a sincere faith and testimony of the divinity of these teachings.
To understand in depth the theological errors of Mormonism, please see the following:
Christian Research Network – Mormonism
CARM – Mormonism and the Atonement of Jesus Christ
airō – Cults and World Religions
2. Deception in the Church
More than Mitt Romney’s Mormon worldview, the undercurrent of deception through the mainstreaming of Mormonism precludes me from voting for him in November. This has been a concern of mine for a couple of years ever since I began observing the pluralistic religious right movement to “awaken America” from her moral decline. We’ve seen it with Rick Perry and the New Apostolic Reformation, and more popularly with Glenn Beck’s revival events. Glenn Beck has been a spearhead in this movement as he leads the charge of the religious right to “restore America” (most recently at the Under God Indivisible and Restoring Love events). In this video clip and subsequent article, you will see Glenn Beck, joined by prominent evangelicals applauding him, as he invokes the name of Jesus Christ as if he worships the same Jesus as Christians.
But it’s not just Glenn Beck who is bringing Mormons, Christians, Catholics, and Jews together under the banner of the same God, we are seeing it take place from the political pulpit. Take, for instance, the following prayer offered by Ken Hutchins, who is the current Mormon Stake President of Boston, at the 2012 Republican National Convention. I can only imagine how many Christians unequally yoked themselves with Hutchins unknowingly:
We see the same thing coming from Mitt Romney, who is becoming more emboldened with references to his god as if Christians worship the same God as he. Professing Christians across America are being so deceived, such as at Liberty University when Romney delivered the commencement speech there in May 2012. During the speech, Romney exhorted the audience:
All that you have heard here at Liberty University – about trusting in God and in His purpose for each of us–makes for more than a good sermon. It makes for a good life.
Or how about on September 8, 2012, when Romney made the following promise in Virginia Beach:
I will not take God out of the name of our platform. I will not take God off our coins and I will not take God out of my heart. We’re a nation that’s bestowed by God.
These are just a couple of examples of Mitt Romney invoking the Christian God and how Mormonism is being so widely accepted by mainline Christianity. Mormons are good about using Christian terms, and they can oftentimes sound Christian, but their definitions of these terms can be wildly opposed to their true definitions (consider “grace”, for example, by comparing Ephesians 2:8-10 and Nephi 25:23). So what are the ramifications of the Christian Right’s embrace of Mitt Romney? Just recently, Erin Benziger, co-editor of the Christian Research Network, reported on the ramifications of Kirk Cameron’s relationship with Glenn Beck where one person made the following comment on facebook:
Mormons are definitely Christians. You are more than welcome to check out http://mormon.org/jesus-christ – it will answer any question about what Mormons believe! Besides, I love that Kirk is cool with being friends with people that don’t believe exactly what he believes. That, to me, is truly being a Christian (source).
My concern for the days ahead is that many people will be deceived into believing Mormonism is just another denomination or branch of Christianity. We are already seeing Christians yoking themselves in prayer and spiritual endeavors to “reclaim America”, and I believe this will only get worse as we near election day (and even worse if Romney is elected).
Truthfully, I believe the Lord is using this deception in His sovereign plan to judge the nations before Christ returns. We are living in a day where the invisible Church, the True Church of Jesus Christ comprised of God’s regenerate sheep, is getting smaller and smaller, relatively speaking. The visible church, which is comprised of regenerate sheep and unregenerate goats who profess Christ, is getting larger as liberalism, postmodernism, ecumenism, and pluralism infiltrate the church and redefine truth as it is in Jesus Christ. Satan is hard at work deceiving people with compromised gospels that do not save and seducing the world into believing all roads lead to heaven, or that God is a supernatural force within all people, or that God does not exist at all. As a result, the church has become more inclusive and is full of apostates and goats who hate the truth and love unrighteousness (see 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).
Through the work of patriotic idolatry that has taken place over the last few years, America is ripe for judgment in her spiritual fornication, and sadly, this has largely been cultured by right-wing Christian activists committing adultery on the Gospel with their political agendas.
My perception is that when Mitt Romney talks of restoring America in God’s name, and he wants my help in putting him in office so that America can get back on track, he’s asking me to join him in spiritual enterprise. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 warns against this, so I want nothing to do with putting Mitt Romney in office.
3. Mitt Romney is not pro-life
Finally, Mitt Romney’s Mormonism aside, there is a single issue that precludes me from voting for him: Romney is not 100% pro-life. This is an absolute deal-breaker for me. Even if Romney and I agreed on everything else, the fact that he makes exceptions for abortion due to rape or incest prohibits me to vote for him.
Up until last month, it was not clear to me where Romney stood on the sanctity of life. I had heard he was a flip-flopper and was only pro-life for political points. Everything finally came into perspective when the controversy broke in August surrounding Rep. Todd Akin’s remarks on rape and abortion. In response to Rep. Akin’s comments, the Romney campaign immediately distanced themselves with the following:
Governor Romney and Congressman Ryan disagree with Mr. Akin’s statement, and a Romney-Ryan administration would not oppose abortion in instances of rape (source).
Romney is unapologetic in his emphatic support of abortion in the cases of rape and incest, shown at minute 2:15 in this video posted on December 9, 2011. This should really not be a surprise for us as the Mormon Church also makes this exception:
Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer (source).
If one ever wondered whether Romney’s Mormon worldview would inform his decision making, I believe this is a significant indication that it does.
This single issue alone is enough for me to not vote for Mitt Romney, and with a clear conscience. For I am an abolitionist, which means principle trumps pragmatism, and I will not compromise biblical conviction for the sake of political gain. If a candidate is not 100% pro-life and does not seek the abolition of abortion, then he will never get my vote, regardless of where he stands on other issues
(EDIT: I elaborate on Romney’s position on life and why I can’t vote for him in Romney’s Rape and Incest Exceptions on Abortion)
Conclusion
In April, Tony Miano posted the following thought on his Cross Encounters blog:
If we can learn anything from this year’s presidential election, based on the qualities of the challengers and the incumbent from which we have to choose, it is this: as with Israel of old, God is punishing the United States of America by giving her the leadership she wants (1 Samuel 19-22). He is exercising His holy wrath of abandonment against a nation that has turned away from Him and hates Him (Romans 1:18-32). Join me in praying for our nation. Pray the United States of America repents of her wickedness and unholy standards and turns to Jesus Christ.
Praying for our leaders is something I have lacked in. I am repenting from disobeying this clear command in Scripture, and I ask you to join me especially if you also have failed in your responsibility to pray for our leaders. Tony’s exhortation above is rooted in the following from 1 Timothy 2:1-4:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
We are to not only pray for the leaders of our church, but all leaders in authority over us at the local, state, and federal level. These are kings and those in high positions, and we are to pray for them that we would lead peaceful and quiet lives. But not only that, but God desires all kinds of people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Sinners in low places and high places, and all kinds of people in between, must by grace alone repent from their sins and place their faith alone in Jesus Christ alone in order to receive eternal life. Let us pray that Barack Obama and Mitt Romney would come to the end of themselves and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.
As Tony, I also believe our current choices in the presidential election are God’s judgment on this nation for her love of wickedness. While I will not be voting for either candidate, I do have a responsibility to pray for them that God would give them “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:4-6).
Do not let others bully you into voting according to their convictions this November. You have your own convictions, and through prayer and studying these things for yourself, you can honor the Lord in what you decide. Whatever your decision, let it not be for the sake of America, but for the sake of the glory of God.
p.s. I invite you to watch the following documentary of eight former Latter-day Saints who share about their life-changing encounter with the one and only true Living God, the Lord Jesus Christ (more information at Unveiling Grace):
airō 
jim
September 24, 2012
This is a tough call Biblically! It’s our own fault that these two unbelieving candidates are our only choice. The Most High God is not happy with our sinful ways. God hates sin! And we have become a sinful nation over the years. This just didn’t happen last month! It’s been brewin for decades and now Gods wrath is about to fall upon the U.S.. You are right about prayer! We as Christians(those who know Christ as their Saviour) need to get on our knees, fast and plead to our merciful God! Sin is killin us! We have become like the Israelites in following the ways of the world. We’ve become unequally yoked with the world.
Look at our Churches today, the apostasy, the denominations that are unBiblical, the music, feminism, woman Pastors, prosperity teaching and the list goes on. We look more like the world than ever before, why? Because we choose not to read,study and obey God’s Holy Word. We’ve twisted God’s Holy Scripture to make say what we want and have become “luke warm.” But Jesus did say these things were gonna happen in the last days. In the last days we are in! So buckle up Church, cry out to our merciful Lord and repent! Pray and Fast for our leaders, our Nation and the World! Be bold and courageous in telling others about Christ, its what Jesus commands us to do!
As far as voting for these candidates, PRAY!
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray , and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Justin Edwards
September 25, 2012
Amen, Jim. I believe our time is running short, so we need to be all the more urgent about proclaiming the Gospel as Jesus has commanded.
David Shedlock
October 9, 2012
The scripture is referring to the only nation that bears the name of Christ, the people or church of God. There is no other Christian nation. So, our prayers will be one means God uses to rescue His church, but there is no attached promise to save America, for it is not a people called by His name.
Angie Zwisler
October 29, 2012
I am going to pray more fervently for our country. You are correct, the two candidates we have to choose from are a result of our own doing as a country–we reminds me of the frog being boiled to death very slowly. By the time he realizes what is happening, he is cooked. The true church must rise up and seek His face and pray for mercy.
Janice
September 24, 2012
I did not finish reading your post (kinda over the top with justifications of your thinking) and will probable drop it. I understand that voting for Romney because he is Mormon so you really should not vote at all and maybe if you convince enough of your post followers they will do the same. Does mean you are not voting for Barack Obama? You need to write a post on the truths you find about him. Pray about it God answers. But I do have some questions for you. I do not give a hankers damn about what party wins (since you went way out of your way to villeinize Republicans) I care about a candidate who at least believes in God albeit not the way I believe, which wow, is called freedom of religion. The present person occupying the White House says he believes in God too but I question which God or Allah. His actions speak the latter. His actions also speak of stopping free speech, stopping freedom of expression, stopping freedom of religion, stopping the freedom of owning a gun (if I choose to), and taking the money I have worked hard for and giving it to those who are less fortunate. I give through my church and community organizations and feel the government needs to keep their grubby hand off what I work for. And this administration says it is for our, the peoples good. I do notice what is good for the people is not good for him, his family, or his cronies, just the rest of us. Kinda reminds me of the company I once worked for that changed the rules on sick days because we the employees wanted it not them which was a lie as what this administration is doing lying. You are correct in one thing we need to pray. Pray for forgiveness for this country turning it’s back on God, pray for our churches who have watered does the gospel, pray for the sick, for the hurting, pray for our military who are over defending what this administration is doing with our country, pray for our neighbors, pray for our enemies, and yes pray for our leaders. I have to say I honestly have a problem with the last one and I have discussions with God almost daily about it. I do know God put him in office, I believe to wake us up. Part of us are awake but the rest are not, I truly am not sure about you, only you know, I am not to judge but I can decide like you who I will listen to and who I will not and ask the Holy Spirit to give me discernment. There are a lot of discussions going on of voting for Romney because he is a Mormon but I have peace with voting for him because he believes in the same God I believe in. What I do not understand is why there are not more discussions on voting for a man whose actions show he is not a believer in my God nor has he any respect or love for America. I know my God is in control and if he wants Obama to finish destroying America then it will be and I will accept this as our judgement to be perfectly honest we deserve it.
Justin Edwards
September 25, 2012
Hi Janice, thank you for stopping by. I’ll do the best I can to address your concerns:
1) I understand it was a lengthy article and I nearly broke it up into three parts, but ultimately decided to keep it all in one piece. You may find my justifications for not voting for Mitt Romney to be over the top, but they are my convictions and I stand by them.
2) It is clear for a number of reasons that you did not read the entire article as Romney’s Mormon worldview is the least of my reasons for not voting for him. If you read my 3rd reason, you will see why I won’t vote for him regardless of the Mormon issue.
3) I have written about Barack Obama, which you can read here: Why Christians Should NEVER Vote for Barack Obama (or any other pro-choice/pro-abortion candidate).
4) I’m not sure where you read that I “villainized” Republicans?
5) You clearly have your reasons why you do not want Obama to continue in office, and I agree those are good reasons. However, for me, I do not want Obama out of the White House more than my desire to be faithful to God’s Word and my convictions. Regardless of the outcome of this election, God will provide for my every need and I am not concerned what man can do, or thinks he can do, because he can do none of it unless the Lord allows him to do it.
6) I am fully awake, I assure you, which is why I have not relegated myself to the status quo in this election.
7) It is one thing to have peace in voting for a Mormon, it is quite another to believe that the Mormon worships the same God as the Christian. You have proven to be a primary example for why I am concerned about the exposure and legitimization of Mormonism by mainstream Christianity (see Reason #2, especially the additional links provided).
Thanks again for your comment, Janice.
Curator Stan
October 5, 2012
Very good comment but the Mormon god is a different god since they teach that the God of this world was once a human like us. Mormons believe in many, many gods, but Romney is the lesser of the two evils at any rate.
Janice
October 5, 2012
I apologize I have since did the research and find you are correct. While you are correct I will still vote for Romney not because he is a Mormon but because of the two choices we have in this Presidential election I feel he is the better. I do not know what he will do but he has to be better than what we currently have. I believe God is in control and I believe God allowed Obama to get in office to wake America up. I pray He feels there are enough righteous left He will give us a short reprieve. God allowed us to be born in this country, with that privilege comes responsibility, being a light to a dying world. America use to be a country of hope both here and abroad, it isn’t any longer. That being said I can say I am a christian and I can with a clear conscience vote for Romney. I also feel that you need to be praying for Romney more than you are judging him, I also feel God will judge you both on the life you have lead just He will me.
Justin Edwards
October 6, 2012
Hi Janice, praise God for your humility to research Mormonism and having understanding it is a cult. May you honor the Lord in your voting decision. Grace and peace to you.
Marcus Davis
September 25, 2012
Amen brother! Great piece…I have been in some deep, hard conversations on this very topic. Thank you for focusing your amazing wordsmithing skills on this potentially divisive issue!
Justin Edwards
September 25, 2012
Thanks, brother. I hope it will be helpful as you continue these conversations as I have an inkling it’s not going away any time soon. 🙂
bearkiller777
September 25, 2012
OK for some reason my comment didn’t go through the first time and i dont recall everything that i had wanted to say, so i will make it short here: I agree with you Bro and that I won’t be voting for Mitt Romney either however i think maybe stopping by the polls to vote (even a write in vote or third party candidate) so that it won’t be a no-vote/obama vote for me. I am a Libertarian and dont’ particularly would vote for either Romney or Obama at this point.
Great post though 🙂
Justin Edwards
September 25, 2012
Thanks, brother. I will likely be doing the same as you with writing in a candidate if that is allowed in NC. I haven’t checked yet, so I’ll have to look at my options.
Justin Edwards
September 25, 2012
UPDATE: I made the following edit under Reason #3: (EDIT: The Abolish Human Abortion blog just posted the following article that is very timely and very relevant to this article. If you would like to further understand why I, and all abolitionists, cannot vote for candidates such as Mitt Romney, please see An Abolitionist’s Voting Guide).
Brian Ottinger
September 25, 2012
Great post brother. Thank you for sharing these truths. You are a light in the dark. Thank you! Also, I believe you can write in a vote. Also the polling stations are great places to hand out Gospel tracts to people walking in. Love your zeal and your clear and precise delivery in sharing your thoughts. Soli Deo Gloria!
Justin Edwards
September 26, 2012
Praise the Lord, brother – thank you.
henryfrueh
September 26, 2012
Excellent. Democracy itself is pagan and a form of humanism. Its roots go back to the humanistic Greeks. Voting is an outward practice that supports a fallen system. Some trust in horses, some trust in chariots, some trust in politics, but we will trust in the name of our Lord!
stump 10
September 26, 2012
discernment, discernment, discernment – thanks for the post about writing in a name so it will not be for obama – i cannot vote for either of the candidates – if we think about it – Our Master did not vote or get involved in the political scene in His days on earth – We KNOW Who is in control of our leaders even if it is to judge our nations. it is time to get to really KNOW who is in control and trust HIM through these dark days ahead.
Janice
September 26, 2012
Stump I wasn’t aware there was any voting in Jesus’ day. God will put in charge who he wants in charge with everyone here agrees with but did you ever stop to think that maybe God wants us to make a decision too.
Joyce
September 26, 2012
So you aren’t voting for Romney because he’s not 100% pro-life but will try to influence others to put Obama back in office. Obama, who is 100% pro-choice! What a hypocrite you are!! If Obama goes back in office you won’t have any freedoms left. You should take the shield off your eyes and see that Romney is the lesser of the two evils. He believes in God and keeping our Constitution. While I might not agree with everything Romney stand for, I do believe he loves our country and wants to get us back on track. Obama is anti- American and is doing everything he can to destroy us. You say you will write in your choice on the ballot, well that is a vote for Obama. You and all your followers should go see the movie, Obama’s America 2016 before Election Day. You might see what Obama is doing to destroy us!
Justin Edwards
September 26, 2012
Thanks for your comment, Joyce, but you’ve merely shared the usual talking points of the very mindset I tried to address in this article: https://airocross.com/2012/09/11/addressing-arguments-to-vote-for-mitt-romney/
I also encourage you to read the following article so to correct your wrong assumptions about me: https://airocross.com/2011/09/26/why-christians-should-never-vote-for-obama-or-any-other-pro-choicepro-abortion-candidate/
I also encourage you to spend some time in the resources given in Reason #1 so you will learn that Mormons do not believe in the one true God of Scripture.
And finally, I did see Obama 2016 and thought it was a great documentary. While agree Obama is antithetical to freedom and Christian values, it doesn’t mean I will do whatever it takes to get him out of office (like voting for a Republican who is not pro-life).
These Scriptures are helpful to the discussion and show why I am not worried about the outcome of this election:
Psalm 33:8-11 “8 Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.
10 The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
Isaiah 46:8-10 “8 “Remember this, and be assured;
Recall it to mind, you transgressors.
9 “Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;”
Carol
September 26, 2012
“If Obama goes back in office you won’t have any freedoms left.” – Joyce
Joyce, I hope you will come to an understanding that, as Christians, our freedoms are in Christ, not a country. Watch the Lord work and then keep your eyes and ears open for opportunities to minister, no matter who wins. Either way, Christians will be at the forefront as many disillusioned Americans try to figure out what just happened. Be ready to minister. God is the one who sets up the mission field and determines how He would like us to enter it. I’m excited that all this is happening. Come, Lord Jesus!
Justin Edwards
September 26, 2012
Amen, Carol, that is a really important point. We should be less concerned with the outcome of this election and more concerned with how we will minister the Gospel with people as a result of the election. This nation is being destroyed from within, so we need to be diligent in proclaiming Christ, especially as the days grow darker. He is the only Hope in this life and the life to come, and He is the only Rock of salvation.
dj
October 10, 2012
When we continue to vote for the lesser of 2 evils one day we will find Satan
on the ballot.
Alyssa
September 26, 2012
This is a foolish statement to make. For one, Mitt Romney is in fact pro life. For another, he may not be the best choice but he’s far better than his opponent, Obama. So if you would rather Obama, who has caused more havoc then I even care to start on, and someone who is willing to totally deplete God, then you must not be too strong of a Christian at all. And by not voting, you’re basically putting a vote in Obamas pocket.
Justin Edwards
September 26, 2012
Alyssa, being pro-life means you are against all abortions all of the time. In other words, there is never a time when it should be legal to murder a child within the womb. Mitt Romney says it is ok to murder a child in the womb if the woman is pregnant as a result of rape or incest. That is not pro-life, although it is more “pro-life” than Obama’s position. Nevertheless, both Romney’s and Obama’s are evil positions.
Carol
September 26, 2012
“[Romney] may not be the best choice but he’s far better than his opponent, Obama.” – Alyssa
Alyssa, in God’s eyes, both candidates hate Him and both are actively sinning against Him. How is believing that God was once a mere man who had sex with Mary and became a god (among many) better than Obama’s beliefs?
“And by not voting, you’re basically putting a vote in Obamas pocket.” -Alyssa
Well, if I were a Democrat and I told my Democrat friends that I was not voting for Obama or not voting at all, they would say, “And by not voting, you’re basically putting a vote in Romney’s pocket.” See, it works both ways.
It seems that you are looking to be able to continue in a relatively comfortable life; yet, you say Justin “must not be too strong a Christian…” Alyssa, it is the strong Christian who knows that this world is passing away. It is the strong Christian who knows that his citizenship is in Heaven, not on this earth. It is the strong Christian who knows that his life is hid with Christ in God. It is the strong Christian who needn’t worry about what happens tomorrow. It is the strong Christian who has his eyes on the heavens, not on the White House. It is the strong Christian who sees all that is going on in the world and rejoices that God is unfolding His plans just as He said He would in His Word. It is the strong Christian who rejoices in hardships and trials. It is the strong Christian who will be pressured and buffeted by the enemy, yet rejoice for God’s glory. Is is the strong Christian who doesn’t want the easy way out, but the Godly road no matter how hard.
Justin Edwards
September 27, 2012
Amen, Carol, amen.
Steve Lumbley
September 26, 2012
Hey Justin – thanks for posting this. it is causing a huge debate on our FaceBook page. One day soon, the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our God and all this nonsense will be finished
Justin Edwards
September 27, 2012
Thanks, Steve – I can’t say I am surprised by some of the reactions I’ve seen here and on facebook….grieved, but not surprised.
runder88
September 26, 2012
I echo Steve Lumbley’s comments, Justin. Thank you for such a bold and well-researched post – it’s time the Church stopped making unholy alliances and starting preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom – not the false gospel of ‘taking back America for God’, which preaches worldly prosperity, condemnation of sinners, chick-fil-a attendance, and an hour (at best) every week to show up, shake a hand or two, deposit a tithe (for a tax break), and go home feeling just dandy about right standing before God.
Come out from among them, and be ye separate! – Ron Underwood
john r. coon, md
September 27, 2012
Your tunnel vision is well intended but self righteous, self serving and naive. We are not voting for a theologian or a national pastor. We are voting for a manager of the affairs of this country. Obama’s position on Israel, alone, puts us in God’s cross hairs, “I will bless those who bless Israel and I will curse those who curse Israel”. We have never had a more blatantly godless man than Obama in the White house.
I’m a physician. Tell me, if you needed open heart surgery would you prefer the world’s most recognized talented atheist or a poorly trained, substandard “Christian” physician?
Again, I believe your position is dangerously naive.
John R. Coon, MD
Justin Edwards
September 27, 2012
Tunnel vision? Because I have considered the options and am uncompromising and not voting in a manner that you see fit? Self-righteous? Because I’m following my convictions based on my understanding of God’s Word? Naive? Because I choose not to vote for someone who makes exceptions for the murder of children in the womb? If you’re truly interested in me addressing your concerns, please take a minute to read the following as I already preempted your arguments: https://airocross.com/2012/09/11/addressing-arguments-to-vote-for-mitt-romney/
This article wasn’t written to tell you what to do this election cycle, it was to tell you what I am doing this election cycle.
stacefischer
September 27, 2012
I read your post this morning and with the gentlest of spirits I have to say that I disagree with you on this matter. Unfortunately many people are under the belief that our nation was founded on God, when in fact it was founded on freedom of religion. People came to America to escape the Catholic church who was executing and torturing the Protestants for their religious beliefs. America was founded on a freedom to practice religion without persecution and I’m thankful to live in a place where I’m free to do so. In few other countries would you even be free to express these beliefs that you have and I am thankful that that’s the case. Morality is often confused with true biblical conversion and while many of our founding fathers did indeed hold to what would be deemed Godly principles, they were themselves in fact complete hedonists and many engaged in complete debauchery in their private lives. many of them, were not , it would seem, true converts of the faith. ( This is not true of course for all of them)So in reality we have never had, and never will have, a candidate that “Jesus would vote for” I agree 100% with the views you stated of Mitt Romney and there contrary nature to scripture. We should pray whole heartedly that the Lord would bring about true conversion in his heart, as we should with every non believer. But for me, who I vote for in the election has nothing to do with religion. Because we aren’t here to change the culture. We’re here to reach the hearts of men on an individual level. We will never be led by a truly godly leader until Christ returns. My political view is exactly that, political. I’m not concerned with the religious views of the candidate, because there will never be one i agree with until Christ returns and it is he himself (not a candidate but I mean to say the one and only ruler of the nation of believers) What I am concerned with is, will this person create jobs, will he make it so that my husband who received a masters degree and went $100,000 in debt to attain it, can earn the money that is education should alot him instead of having a one class system. Will this person give me the freedom to worship my God and boldly proclaim his gospel without persecution. Will he cut taxes and spending and create jobs. Will he keep our government one of democracy, or seek to take away my freedoms with a socialist government. In my mind, this is not an election based on religion. It’s an election based on politics. I think we have to be careful in giving the impression that if we are convicted not to vote because of a candidates belief, that we are not conveying that it is sin to do otherwise, or that we are somehow spiritually enlightened in a way that others are not. You can have an opinion, and I can have an opinion, and neither one is sin. I think John MacArthur sums up my own convictions in one of his excellent sermons. I think it’s a wonderful resource to have a better understanding of what those who would disagree with your ideas do believe and the convictions that they would hold to. You can find it here….
http://www.gty.org/products/audio-lessons/56-24/The-Christians-Responsibility-in-a-Pagan-Society-Part-2
(it says its $5 but then there is a link below it where you click and can listen to it online for free. it can also be found on the Grace to You app under the series “A Radical Alternative to Political Activism” It is Part 2
Justin Edwards
September 27, 2012
Hi Stacey, thank you for taking the time to comment. I want you to know I agree with most of what you said. I will try to respond clearly.
I agree with everything you said up through this sentence “We should pray whole heartedly that the Lord would bring about true conversion in his heart, as we should with every non believer” (except I believe it was persecution by the Church of England through the monarchy).
One question I have for you regarding your next statement of “But for me, who I vote for in the election has nothing to do with religion.” I understand what you mean here, but would stand by that statement if your two choices were both Muslim?
You then said, “…we aren’t here to change the culture. We’re here to reach the hearts of men on an individual level.” I absolutely agree with you.
Regarding your concerns that inform your voting decisions, I have no argument with you. Those are your convictions and I would not seek to convince you otherwise. The only point I would make is that boldly proclaiming Christ *with* persecution is not a bad thing, in fact, it could be the very thing that weeds out the tares from the wheat and brings about true revival. Please see Paul Washer’s brief comments on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7UyZYpeReY
You said, “I think we have to be careful in giving the impression that if we are convicted not to vote because of a candidates belief, that we are not conveying that it is sin to do otherwise, or that we are somehow spiritually enlightened in a way that others are not. You can have an opinion, and I can have an opinion, and neither one is sin.”
If I have given that impression then I apologize. I tried to make clear in the previous article ( https://airocross.com/2012/09/11/addressing-arguments-to-vote-for-mitt-romney/ ) and this one that I know of godly men and women who will be voting for Mitt Romney, and that is OK. I’ve merely sought out to share why I will not be voting for him. Just as Christians differ on whether to celebrate Christmas, one’s decision in doing so or not doing so is not a matter of enlightenment or sin. These are gray matters in Scripture and we must each be convinced in our own minds. I have no issue with you voting for Mitt Romney based on your convictions, I just ask my brothers and sisters to respect my conclusion to not vote for Romney based on my convictions.
This post (and the last one) is mainly targeted to those who are struggling in their decision based on the options, and taking a stand against those who would accuse us of not being patriotic or “Christian” in our “duty” to vote for the Republican.
Ultimately, as I pointed out in Reason #3, it is not Romney’s Mormonism that mostly precludes me from voting for him, it is his position on the sanctity of life. Romney desires to keep legal the murder of children in the womb of the mother, and for that primary reason, I cannot vote for him.
Thank you for posting the JM message, but I fail to see where I disagree with him. If you know a specific point he addressed that you believe opposes anything I have written, please feel free to post it here (from the transcript) and I would be happy to respond if given the opportunity.
If anything, I would think this post is in complete opposition to Christian activism in politics since I am sitting this one out.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, Stacey.
Justin Edwards
September 27, 2012
p.s. Stacey, in case it was not clear, the following from the article was intended for Christians who conclude they will vote for Romney just as much as it was intended for Christians who conclude they will not vote for him: “Do not let others bully you into voting according to their convictions this November. You have your own convictions, and through prayer and studying these things for yourself, you can honor the Lord in what you decide. Whatever your decision, let it not be for the sake of America, but for the sake of the glory of God.”
Mary Ann Lyons
September 27, 2012
Your piece reminded me of a story I heard in church a few years back. Maybe you heard it also. It’s about the Christian man stranded on a small island in the middle of the ocean and he prays to God to be rescued. I don’t remember the story entirely but it goes something like this………he prays to God to rescue him and after a while a boat comes by but he waves it on. A bit later a helicopter flys over and again he waves it on. Eventually the man died and went to heaven and when he got there he said to God “I prayed for you to rescue me – why didn’t you? and God’s answer was “I sent you a boat and a helicopter”.
I’m grateful every day that I was born in this country. This country that lets me go to a Christian church and worship freely. I can go to restaurant and give thanks over my meal, put a Jesus bumper sticker on my car, wear a cross around my neck, take my Bible with me wherever I go, turn on TV and find at least three stations that are putting out the gospel of Jesus Christ….same with the radio. I could go on but I think you get my point. This is possible because of our “founding fathers” many of who were Godly. My guess is most, possibly none, would not meet your criteria. But I know (and I think you know) that God’s hand was on this nation when it was formed.
There is a spiritual side to everything. EVERYTHING. Do you buy your groceries from a Christian store or farm? How about your clothes or shoes? Where did you buy your car? Your furniture? Do you use a Christian Internet service or is it some company that supports abortion and same sex marriage? Do you fly on airplanes or use trains? Who made the appliances that you use in your house? Who do you buy your electricity from or where do you get gas for your car? Where did you buy your computer…from a Christian store? Do you ever go to restaurants?…..are they Christian? Do you take vacations to “Christian only”? When you partake in all these things, you are supporting them. We are Christians in a secular world. But it is a world we can influence whether it be by prayer or witnessing or voting. And, like it or not, not voting is voting. Romney just may be that boat or helicopter. And you sir are a pious hypocrite.
Janice
September 27, 2012
Beautifully said Mary Ann, thank you.
Justin Edwards
September 27, 2012
Mary Ann, I am sorry to see you demonstrating the very things I addressed in this article: https://airocross.com/2012/09/11/addressing-arguments-to-vote-for-mitt-romney/
Tracey
October 3, 2012
So you (Mary Ann) are suggesting that God’s answer for our help is in the form of someone who is accursed according to His Word? Galatians 1:8.
I don’t believe Justin is saying that he’s not voting for Romney because he’s “NOT a Christian.” I believe he’s trying to point out (among other things, of course) that he’s not voting for Romney because he’s in a cult.
He’s not implying that we can’t vote if the nominee is not a Christian. What I have gathered is that, by this man (Romney) declaring his faith in something that is outside of the Gospel, that we as Believers should have no part in standing behind this man who is accursed according to Scripture.
We, as Believers, are called to obedience, not to results. Grace and peace to you.
David Shedlock
October 9, 2012
The Bible does not address the specific calling of grocer or airplane pilot. I does, however, address the calling of civil magistrates, who must Fear God, Kiss the Son, and not promote the violation of God’s commands. Neither Obama or Romney qualify on that basis alone.
Diane Wilson
October 17, 2012
This comment exemplifies my reasons for withdrawing from the political process. It is an ugly and un-Christlike business. His kingdom is not of this world, and we American Christians would do well to lay hold of that. When we stoop to calling fellow believers “pious hypocrites” over differences in political opinion, I believe it grieves Him. There is no love in that.
Jean
September 27, 2012
Mr. Edwards,
I agree with your post. I would be interested in your position if Romney were a practicing, devout Roman Catholic. Could you then vote for him? As a former Roman Catholic, now saved by grace, and as one who attempts to make our congregation aware of the extreme deception of that religion, I would have a hard time voting for a Roman Catholic as well. However, I am not sure if that is in the same realm as voting for a Mormon of Romney’s stature. My husband and I feel that the false doctrines and belief in “another Jesus” may prohibit voting for either a practicing R.Catholic or Mormon, regardless of a pro-life stand. Would you vote for a pro-life atheist candidate before voting for either a Roman Catholic or Mormon? I don’t wish to deviate from the discussion, but I am honestly interested in your opinion. Thank you!
Justin Edwards
September 27, 2012
Hi Jean, those are great and challenging questions, and I would have to give the Catholic question more thought. The Catholic’s worldview is certainly more lined up with the Christian worldview than is the Mormon worldview. And obviously, the Atheist worldview is opposed to both the Catholic and Christian worldview. Perhaps I will have to deal with this scenario four years from now. 🙂
Levi
October 5, 2012
Justin. I’ve agreed with all of your posts up until now. Saying the Catholic’s worldview is more lined up with the Christian worldview then Mormonism is, seems to me to be expressive of the same lukewarm statements as those who say, Romney is the lesser of two evils when it comes to Obama. Both are works churches, and the latter is works plus Mary as opposed to works plus Smith. Both are damnable heresies. I couldn’t vote for a Catholic. But I can love them. For anyone with little knowledge if the Catholic church, I highly recommend, The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop. As for my vote, I will not be voting. I can’t vote for a person that calls my Savior, the brother of Lucifer. I wonder how many would vote for Romney if he were to tell a lie about one of their own family members as the mormon church does Jesus.
Justin Edwards
October 5, 2012
Hi Levi, thanks for commenting. Well, by saying a worldview is close to the Christian worldview is not the same as saying the worldview is salvific. Even professing Christians can have a Christian worldview and still be dead in their sins.That doesn’t mean I would necessarily not vote for the false Christian. As far as the Catholic worldview is concerned, I haven’t considered it thoroughly enough to understand the clear differences (or implications) between it and the Christian worldview, other than its denial of Sola Scriptura. I suppose it could be a dangerous thing should a devout Catholic have more loyalty to the pope than country, but I’ll just have to wait to cross the bridge if we ever get to it.
stacefischer
September 27, 2012
Glad to hear your response. I would like to clarify that I am not saying that preaching Christ with persecution is a bad thing. I simply believe we are very blessed to live in a nation where we have the freedom to proclaim the gospel and its one we should be thankful for as many others do not have this. I just wanted to make sure i did not communicate that unclearly and give you an impression that I view otherwise. I hoped in my comment to convey a gentle spirit, one that respects your belief, but has my own very different one. I posted the John MacArthur sermon not out of a heart of looking down on you or my own pride. But out of a heart of conveying more accurately what my position is. That people can decide to vote Romney not out of a “lesser of two evils” mentality, but out of their own biblical convictions which are also deeply rooted in scripture. I think, perhaps unintentionally, there is a harness in many of your responses that conveys a sense of talking down to. I really felt a bit belittled by your reply. I think in all our conversations we should remember that “pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones” I truly hope that my comment was given in a God honoring way and please forgive me if my communication was not a reflection of this verse. I believe it to be such a blessing to be able to have humble discussions like these regarding the gospel. My aim was not to engage in an “i prove my point, you prove your’s” argument. Please forgive me if my language in anyway conveyed this.
Justin Edwards
September 27, 2012
Thanks for responding, Stacey. I just read it and wanted to respond as quickly as possible because the last thing I want to do is to offend you. To the extent my response to you was not neutral or that it was belittling, please forgive me as that was not my intention at all. Perhaps written communication is to blame somewhat, so I certainly welcome an in-person discussion if the opportunity ever presents itself. 🙂
I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter, and I largely agree with you. And thank you for clarifying your comment regarding persecution and I agree with you there.
I thought you did convey a gentle spirit, so thank you for your graciousness as it is clear you wish to honor the Lord with your speech.
Regarding JM, I do thank you for posting it as it is very important. I agree with JM’s points and subsequently yours, but maybe I overlooked something. Is there a paragraph you could share where you feel anything I have posted has been contrary to JM’s points, or that reflects a different position than I have given? I just want to be sure I’m not missing something as it seems we are on the same page. If I am in error, I certainly want to know about it.
I suppose it’s not possible to cover all considerations in one or multiple blog posts, so I can see how you felt I may have lumped all people who are voting for Mitt Romney in the same basket of “voting for the lesser of two evils”. I don’t believe that at all. As I mentioned earlier, I hoped to address those who use that argument and those who catch the brunt of it, but I do know there are others who don’t use the argument at all (such as yourself). What I have seen is abuse by some Christians trying to influence others to vote for their candidate, so in part, the previous article was a reaction to that. I hope that makes sense.
I share your same desire in having healthy, fruitful, and edifying discussions that honor the Lord. Please know you can always expect that from me, even if I don’t always hit the mark.
Grace and peace to you, dear sister.
Denise
September 29, 2012
Romney will not be divorced from his Mormon faith and neither will a biblical Christian be divorced from his Christian faith. It really is a spiritual issue. Thanks for a good article. Glad to see others coming forward about why they can’t vote for Romney.
Bob S.
September 30, 2012
It is precisely this sort of thinking that will put Obama back in the White House. To not vote for his opponent results in a plus 1 for Obama. To restrict your support to one who agrees with your doctrine – is simply naive, and irresponsible. This pro-life position is also naive. We have had profoundly prolife presidents (Reagan) – but nothing changed. That is a Supreme Court issue, not a president issue. However, it it the president who decides who will become a new Supreme Court justice. Do you really want Obama to choose the next one? With your thinking, he will be – God help us.
We are not electing a spiritual leader. Given the two choices, your decision to give Obama a plus 1 advantage is almost miraculously hypocritical, given your stated concerns. This man is out to destroy the country and take away your freedoms – yet you would give him the advantage.
God help us, and God help you.
Justin Edwards
September 30, 2012
Bob, I am not responsible for Obama’s getting re-elected if God wills that to happen. The people who voted for him will have done that, and will further show the depravity of this nation.
Further, I have never stated that one must agree with me on doctrine in order for me to vote for them. As I said in the previous article,
“There are now generally three standards for which I even begin to consider a candidate, and that is their position on life, marriage, and Israel. One does not have to be a Christian to agree with me on these issues. If one disagrees with me, they are sure to not get my vote, but if they agree, that doesn’t necessarily guarantee they get my vote either. It’s merely the litmus test for consideration. Mitt Romney fails on 1 out of 3, so he doesn’t even qualify for me to consider voting for him.”
As this article points out, Romney’s view of abortion precludes me to vote for him for the reason quoted above.
I would like to challenge you on your calling me irresponsible. From what do you base this on? What is your standard of measure? Your own personal philosophies and subjectivity?
Moreover, from what do you base your comment that “this pro-life position is also naive”? What is your standard of measure for naivety?
I am well aware we are not electing a spiritual leader, but as Denise said above, Romney’s religion cannot be divorced from his decision-making.
The seeming difference between you and me, Bob, is that it appears you do not have a biblical understanding of God’s sovereignty, or that He is the one who appoints kings, and at no time are we commanded in Scripture to go against our personal convictions so as long as those convictions do not disobey God’s Word. You would do well to read Romans 14.
God is clear in Scripture that He hates the hands that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:17). Isaiah 59:4 also declares, “no one calls for justice, nor does any plead for truth. They trust in empty words and speak lies; they conceive evil and bring forth iniquity.”
I hate injustice just as God hates injustice, and I will not compromise my biblical convictions to vote for a man who does not call for justice and plead on the behalf of every single unborn child in the womb, including children who have been conceived due to the crimes of their father.
While I loathe the liberal platform, and the positions of our current president, I do not care to get him out of office no matter what it takes if that means I would have to vote for a man who does not love life the way that God loves life.
If Obama gets re-elected, it will be because America deserves it and it will fit perfectly in God’s sovereign plan for the nations. If Romney is elected, that too will fit perfectly in God’s sovereign plan for the nations.
My hope and joy is not based on my freedoms, my circumstances, or my trials, but solidly in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is my Sustainer, Redeemer, Rock, King, Protector, Healer, and Master. It is He whom I serve, not the dictates of men. He is the Well from which I draw Living Water to never thirst again. My recommendation to you is that you get to know Him more so you do not get tossed to and fro by the cares of this life as you have demonstrated with your comment.
Grace and peace to you.
Bob S.
September 30, 2012
Hello again – I will do my best to answer your questions.
I find your position irresponsible because as a leader, you are clearly promoting the wisdom of a position which strengthens Obama’s likelihood of getting a second term.
As far as your prolife position being naive, let me try to explain it with an illustration. If you were asked to decide between two people – and they had previously committed to these positions: one man ensured the murder of 100 people. One man ensured the saving of 99 of those 100 people. To take an “all or nothing” position would, at worst, ensure the death of all 100. I know you’d rather save 99 than zero.
You do not know me, so your accusation that I have no understanding of God’s sovereignty is a guess. In fact, you are wrong. It is one of those issues that is impossible to reconcile in terms of freedom of choice – but somehow, I know that while God is sovereign, He also holds me accountable for my choices. Imagine how things might have gone if Esther held the view that “hey, what happens is ultimately God’s will – so I don’t need to try and work this out by using every option available to me”. She did take action; people did pray; things worked out; God is sovereign! The Bible is filled with examples of God’s people taking action.
In my state, my vote truly won’t make any difference. But in yours – it could be extremely close. Somehow, God weaves His plan and our choices together – and I believe that this is potentially a case where “good men doing nothing” could have devastating results. There is a time to be wise as serpents…. And I plead with every one of your readers: please do not support Obama by NOT canceling a vote that someone else cast for him.
Finally sir, Please do not make a judgement as to my knowledge and commitment to Biblical truth because I don’t agree with you.
I tremble for this country.
I am sorry that you found my previous post to be offensive.
Justin Edwards
September 30, 2012
Hey Bob, thanks for replying and I appreciate the dialogue. As to promoting wisdom, my only desire is to promote the wisdom that is from above – James 3:13-18:
I assure you there is no selfish ambition as to my decision to not vote for Romney, nor do I seek to lie against the truth, but rather expose the unfruitful works of darkness and herald the truth. To do otherwise would be demonic. I desire to be pure in my motivations, in accordance with peace, gentle to my hearers, reasonable in my conclusions, merciful to all and bearing fruit of righteousness, unwavering in my convictions, and maintaining my integrity so to not be a hypocrite. Moreover, I think it is wise and gracious to not lambaste my brothers and sisters who will be voting for Mitt Romney as it is their Christian liberty to do so even if I don’t agree with them. I’ve done this in neither of these two articles, yet I have indeed been lambasted by some for simply sharing my convictions to help others in a similar boat as me.
Regarding your illustration, no, it is never ok to murder 1 to save 99. If I am given the choices as you have given, I would vote for neither due to biblical principle and trust God in all of it. To give you an example, if I was being forced to shoot one of my children in the head so the others would survive (lest all of us be killed), I would not murder my child and trust the Lord would bring us through the trial (even if that meant all of us died). The one child is just as precious as the others. 1 Peter 3 and 4 are great chapters to read on this. Here is 1 Pet. 3:17 on the matter:
It is never ok to murder, so not murdering would be good, and it would be good to suffer for it.
God’s Word is indeed rife with people taking action, but to take action against one’s conviction or in disobedience to God’s Word is neither godly or righteous – it is sin.
Your plea for people to not support Obama by not voting is baseless. Please do spend some time in Romans 14.
It’s not that I challenge you because you don’t agree with me, I am challenging how you don’t agree with me and that is in your lack of love, grace, patience, respect, and humility toward those who don’t agree with you .
I tremble for this nation as well, but I tremble before God significantly more.
No offense taken, thanks again for the dialogue,
Grace and peace.
Levi
October 5, 2012
Justin. I wish those had been my words, as you have expressed my beliefs so well. I don’t write as well as you do. (sorry for any spelling errrors in my previous post, I did proof read and still missed one) Your posts make me happy knowing believers like you, ARE, out there. I think this is an exciting time to be living as we watch the world events unfolding just as Christ has said they would. I have no fear in this, and wonder why some Christians are so worried about these worldly issues when we know it will all end with us living with Him eternally. Hooray, Let’s go Home.
Carol
October 2, 2012
“To not vote for his opponent results in a plus 1 for Obama.” – Bob S.
Like Justin, I’m not voting for either candidate. Bob says if I don’t vote for Romney it’s a plus 1 for Obama. Well, Bob, according to your math, if I don’t vote for Obama it’s a plus 1 for Romney. 🙂
Okay, I will assume you meant to say that if we vote for a “third party” conservative instead of Romney, it’s a plus 1 for Obama. If that’s the case, then, yes, splitting the conservative vote does give the advantage to Obama. However, for those of us who are not voting at all, your logic doesn’t add up.
The Seeking Disciple
October 1, 2012
While not into politics too much, I find both leading candidates for President to be unbiblical choices. The nature of politics is compromise and for that reason, I never see a true disciple of Jesus being elected President of the United States. How would he/she rule? By the lenses of Scripture or the Constitution? How would he/she stand for biblical morality, biblical holiness, biblical salvation, etc. as President of all people of the United States?
Ultimately, the child of God can rest in knowing that God is sovereign and He allows leaders and He puts down leaders (Daniel 4:32). “The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turn it wherever he will” (Proverbs 21:1). Our duty before God is to submit to the government that He has placed us under so long as that government does not go against His Word (Romans 13:1-7). Titus 3:1-7 tells disciples of Jesus to live godly lives before the pagans understanding that we too once lived as they do but thanks to HIs grace, He has saved us. Let us pray for our leaders to repent and be saved (1 Timothy 2:1-6).
Grace_Christian
October 1, 2012
I will vote for a non-Christian who share Christian values rather that vote for someone who claims to be a Christian, but someone who’s destroying the very fabric of life and the nucleus of the society. As time goes, people are getting more and more immune with the immorality of our society. What were ungodly before are now socially accepted; abortion, marriage between a man and a man or a woman to a woman. Liberal mentality have gain so much acceptance in our society. And with such mentality, Bible is reduced more and more to a mere reading material. Why do many Christians agree to having another term for the liberal leader who’s campaign fund contributors and followers are atheists and many with shady stand on Christianity.
Karl
October 1, 2012
Justin, your post sounds very familiar to many of my own musings! I agree with you in most of your points. The reasoning behind so many people justifying their vote for Romney is a sad commentary of the reasoning so many Christians today use, not only at the voting booth, but in every day life!
As American Christians, we have such a relativistic mindset, and I find in many cases, a scourge of pride which keeps many propping up their own opinions and desires in the face of Biblical reasoning and evidence. I commend you for your decision and your willingness to publicly speak about your unpopular opinion.
If you’re interested, here’s my take on this issue on my humble little blog:
http://www.sardishour.com/cultural-matters/politics-voting-and-the-justifiable-means/
http://www.sardishour.com/cultural-matters/voting-based-on-gods-standards-for-rulers/
God bless!
Justin Edwards
October 5, 2012
Karl, great articles, brother. I finally got a chance to read through them. Thanks for posting and I also saw many similarities in our articles, though I believe you were more thorough on several points. Well done!
David Shedlock
October 9, 2012
I would like to send you my book, With Christ in the Voting Booth: Casting Down Imaginations Before You Vote, but could not find a single place on the webpage to send you an email on the blog, so I apologize if this sounds like a plug (even though it is 8- 🙂
I studied these things for 15 months and came to many of the same conclusions you did, though I believe a Christian should not vote for an unbeliever based upon the Biblical admonitions that we must choose leaders who Fear God, Kiss the Son, and not promote the violation of God’s commands. Please email an address and “i can send a pdf version or an address i can mail the paperback to.
RonMan
October 1, 2012
I’m not voting for a Religious leader I’m voting for the President of USA and I gotta go with the mormon (Mr Romney) over the muslim (Obozo)
Jeremiah
October 5, 2012
I want to say thank you for standing for Truth.
First let me say that I am against abortion 100%. In fact, I see no difference between it and when the Canaanites sacrificed their children to the god of Molech. It is just done in secrete instead of out in the open. http://www.abortionno.org/index.php/blog/christian_college_staff_abortion_is_someone_elses_problem_and_a_threat_to_m/
If you think that you are clean, you might need to think again. Did you know that Pepsi, artificial sweeteners, some Kraft products, and even vaccinations are developed using aborted fetal tissue? http://www.contendingfortruth.com/wp-content/uploads/End-Time-Current-Events-3-25-12.pdf This is the exact reason Obama did not pass a bill protecting the lives of babies who had survived abortions. Here he can gain a profit and sacrifice a baby all at the same time. You want to know why they can get away this: that is easy the head of the FDA is also pro-death as is her chief deputy. http://archive.lifenews.com/nat4909.html
You say that you are not voting. If you do not vote you have no right to complain about the evils of Obama’s administration because you did nothing to vote him out. I have a friend whose husband killed by an IED just 2-3 days before his tour was over in Iraq. She was left a widow with two little boys ages 2 and 4. Can you imagine what it must have been like for her to tell her sons: “Daddy’s not coming back,” after getting all excited about they were going to see their daddy soon? There is no way I could look her in the eye and say “I am not voting, I know your husband died protecting this right, but since I do not agree with any of the candidates 100%, I am not voting.”
You say you are pro-life but what about the people with disabilities and the elderly. Mark my word if Obama gets in again they will be treated worse than animals by his administration. I say worse than animals because animals will be officially deemed to have more than value than any human who “cannot contribute to society.” I also could not tell any of the children with disabilities I have taught “I did not vote or voted third party:” because I did not agree 100% with those who were running for president.”
What about our persecuted brothers and sisters across the world. Have you not noticed that since Obama has been in office that persecution has increased in volume and intensity? That is because Obama is anti-Christian and they know they can get away with it. Whoever is President of the U.S. affects how they are treated. Could you look the persecuted Christians in the eye and tell them: “I did not vote or voted third party:” because I did not agree 100% with those who were running for president.” I know I could not.
Knowing that Obama may very well be bisexual should have us doing everything we can to get him out of office. http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/trinity-church-members-reveal-obama-shocker/
Have you ever thought that God might want to use the position of President of U.S. to save Romney, because he will be so overwhelmed with the responsibility of the job and he will get on his knees and seek the Lord for help? This is what I am praying will happen! Romney thinks he knows God and is deceived about his beliefs, (I know what Mormonism is, I have The God Makers and the God Makers II) Obama is not!
God has given us these freedoms and with these freedoms comes much responsibility and one of those responsibilities is to vote. We have people all over the world dying for the right to vote and if we do not do what has been given to us. Then God help us.
If you do not vote or vote third party you will be doing exactly what Obama would want you to do.
OBAMA=HITLER and I intended to do everything by the power God has given me to get rid of this evil man by voting and voting for Romney.
Justin Edwards
October 5, 2012
Hi Jeremiah, interesting compliment in your first sentence to only give a string of red herrings and straw men. Briefly, (1) I have never said I am not voting. (2) I am pro-life and all life is precious. It is not my problem that my only choices for president are not 100% pro-life. In varying degrees, both desire to keep legal the murder of children in the womb. That is the primary reason I will not be voting for Romney. (3) Please show in Scripture where one of our Christian responsibilities is to vote, and for a certain candidate nonetheless.
Ariel
October 5, 2012
To those Christian Conservatives who plan to sit this election out and NOT vote because you don’t want to vote for a Mormon. I TOTALLY understand where you’re coming from, I had the same feeling……until my very wise hubby reminded me we are NOT now, nor have we EVER cast a vote for Pastor in the WH.
First and foremost, Spiritually they are equally lost and need our prayer and indeed we are COMMANDED to pray even for unjust and cruel leaders…..1 Tim 2:1-4……”1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
YOUR VOTE & TAXES:
How different is voting for a secular office than paying taxes? And what did Jesus say in Matt 22 when the Pharisees plotted to trap him with a question of paying taxes?
Matthew 22:15-22
15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said. 16 And they *sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any. 17 Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax.” And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He *said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They *said to Him, “Caesar’s.” Then He *said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 And hearing this, they were amazed, and leaving Him, they went away.
Whomever you vote for………..GIVE UNTO CAESAR THE THINGS THAT ARE CAESAR’S, AND UNTO GOD THE THINGS THAT ARE GOD’s!!!!!!!!!
Justin Edwards
October 5, 2012
Hi Ariel, thanks for the comment. To your first point about voting for a pastor, I addressed that in the previous article in point #2:
As to the difference between voting and taxes, we are commanded to give our taxes to Caesar, we are not commanded to vote for him.
Shari
October 8, 2012
You state you won’t vote for Romney because of his Mormonism. Does this have more to do with him not being a Christian or is it really about his Mormonism? You say you voted in the last 3 elections, and I believe you said you voted Republican. Do you realize that George W. Bush invoked the name of “God” but it was also not the God of the Bible? By his own admission he was involved in the Skull & Bones Society, which is a form of Freemasonry. To this day he will not talk about it because of his loyalty to it and to keep as much about it as he can a secret. Do you realize that Laura Bush is pro-choice, and was during both of her husband’s terms? Do you realize that George W. Bush was not as strongly pro-life as he could and should have been? Do you realize that in an interview he stated he does not believe the Bible is literal? (Google it) Also, do you know that in an interview he stated that there are many ways that lead to God, when he was asked about Islam and Allah? (Again, his masonic roots show)
Here is Laura Bush talking to Larry King about abortion and gay marriage:
http://technorati.com/videos/article/laura-bush-pro-choice-gay-marriage/
Here is George W. Bush’s record on abortion:
http://americanrtl.org/news/prolife-profile-george-w-bush
George W. Bush does not believe the Bible as literally true:
http://voices.yahoo.com/george-w-bush-bible-not-literally-true-2330717.html
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/09/bush-says-creation-incompatible-evolution/
Here Bush refers to “God” as “the Almighty” and “something greater” but does not say he identifies this god as the God of the Bible, and then he says Muslims and Christians worship the same God. Romney’s mormon religion is masonic and the “god” of it is the same as the masonic God that Bush refers to:
And the father that raised him, George HW Bush, is no more Christian in his beliefs.
Even Reagan’s “Christianity” was not quite accurate. And his wife was practicing astrology in the White House. If you are waiting for a Christian candidate, or one that is “perfect” to you, you have a long wait.
However, in the scope of things, Obama is off the chart when it comes to vile and outward moral evil, without any qualm. Romney, despite his mormonism and less that perfect pro-life record (like GW Bush), is by far better than actions Obama has already proved he is willing to do, and will do more of if given a second term. There will be more than enough who will vote for Obama, so why throw votes away that can be used to counteract at least some of those votes, and very possibly make a difference?
Why do you all of a sudden decide that you won’t vote for the Republican candidate during the most crucial election ever, while there there has been the most vile and evil man sitting in office for the last 4 years? Now, more than ever, votes that will count against Obama are of crucial importance.
I hope that you haven’t also fallen for the lies of David Barton, stating this nation was founded by Christians, as a Christian nation. This nation was founded on Christian principles but many of the forefathers were freemasons, and they made sure that there would not be the establishment of a state religion, which included Christianity. Yes, God has given us a free nation in which we can worship Him and express our Christian beliefs, but this is not a Christian nation. The only nation that ever followed completely after God, and was called by His name, was Israel.
To have the ability to vote in a way that will have much impact and NOT do it, is just wrong. Romney is no different than any previous Republican candidate from the past 30 years.
Justin Edwards
October 8, 2012
Hi Shari, thank you for your comment. You have a lot of information there, so I’ll address just a few points.
1) If you read the article completely, you would see that Romney’s Mormonism is the least reason why I will not be voting for him. The second reason is the deception that Mormonism is playing in mainstream Christianity. The primary reason I won’t be voting for him is his position that it should remain legal to murder children in the womb. He believes a woman should maintain the choice to barbarically punish babies, limb by limb, for the heinous crimes of their father. Please see Reason #3 in the article if you skipped over it.
2) Your wrong assumption (see (1) above) led you on a tirade against previous presidents, and another wrong assumption that “If you are waiting for a Christian candidate, or one that is “perfect” to you, you have a long wait.” I stated in the previous article that one does not have to be a Christian for me to vote for them and indicated the beginning litmus test for my vote is their position on life, marriage, and Israel. Being that this is the first time I am voting in a presidential election as a born again believer, I do not know how I would vote for Bush. If there was information showing that he was not 100% pro-life, then I certainly would not vote for him today.
3) You said, “There will be more than enough who will vote for Obama, so why throw votes away that can be used to counteract at least some of those votes, and very possibly make a difference?” Because I am voting on principle, not to get the bad guy out of office. I do not believe Romney is worthy of my vote because he does not pass my litmus test. I am currently looking into the Constitution Party as it appears to line up with my convictions. I don’t need to compromise my convictions because my “only two choices” are antithetical to the sanctity of life.
4) “I hope that you haven’t also fallen for the lies of David Barton…” Nope. 😉
5) “To have the ability to vote in a way that will have much impact and NOT do it, is just wrong.” Says who and based on what?
6) “Romney is no different than any previous Republican candidate from the past 30 years.” And that has no bearing on why I vote or don’t vote for a person today. 🙂
I hope that clears some things up, Shari, and thanks again for your comment. Grace and peace to you.
rpavich
October 11, 2012
Justin,
If this has been addressed in the comments, please point me to it, I didn’t read them all.
I just read your article and I’m confused…
You said:
Quote:
So Mitt Romney is no ordinary Mormon. He knows the Mormon faith inside and out, and if he is faithful to the Mormon religion as it appears he is, we can assume his Mormon beliefs will inform his decision-making in all areas of life, including leadership as the President of the United States of America. Informing decisions is what worldviews do, and my understanding of Romney’s Mormon worldview precludes me from voting for him.
End quote.
I think it’s a given that any human on earth makes decisions based on his/her presuppositions and beliefs…i.e. his/her worldview…no surprise there.
But where I’m confused is why this is an issue?
Can you give me an example of a decision that you’d expect Romney to make that you are against, based on his LDS world view….?
Justin Edwards
October 11, 2012
Hi rpavich, thanks for the comment and that is a good question. I did briefly mention in Reason #3 regarding Romney’s Mormon worldvidew informing his decisions:
“Romney is unapologetic in his emphatic support of abortion in the cases of rape and incest, shown at minute 2:15 in this video posted on December 9, 2011. This should really not be a surprise for us as the Mormon Church also makes this exception…If one ever wondered whether Romney’s Mormon worldview would inform his decision making, I believe this is a significant indication that it does.”
So I expect Romney to not push for the abolition of abortion because of his exceptions for rape and incest, which is informed by his Mormon worldview. The news that broke yesterday is consistent with my concern: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/09/mitt-romney-abortion_n_1952780.html
rpavich
October 11, 2012
Thanks Justin…that wasn’t apparent….I guess I just read too fast.
To be clear; not all Mormons believe the same things…their doctrine is fluid and any one Mormon can believe quite unlike another as the mood strikes….yet remain Mormon.
Thanks again for clarifying.
Dave
October 12, 2012
Justin,
I just finished reading through another “christian” blog (name withheld intentionally), in which this popular blogger posted multiple responses to “COWARDLY christian justifications” for failing to join his attempt to place a mature, Mormon Elder into the nation’s highest office.
What I read infuriated me, as I witnessed graceless, condescending declarations that there exists NO LEGITIMATE gray areas, in which any measure of christian liberty or grace ought to be extended to a brother or sister whose conscience may lead them to a DIFFERENT conclusion regarding this election.
Nope! He had already done the thinking FOR me,…(only a deluded coward would fail to recognize the wisdom of his logic!).
The intensity of the debate and entrenchment of position was such, that a disdaining air of sophistication and intellect made me feel as though I might find a more compatible refuge of kindness and mercy in a Democratic setting, (though I am registered as Republican).
His moral authority was forfeited, and any genuine merit to his position has been utterly obscured by self-righteousness.
What a poor advertisement for the love of Christ. Lordship salvation is allegedly held in high regard at this website, yet the man behind the keyboard BEATS the sheep, rather than FEEDING them.
Romans 13 was the “hot topic”, but the most overtly pressing need was for 1 Corinthians 13 to be “Applied directly to the HEART”.
Justin, Thanks for not “going there”,… your Christ-honoring online character, is not unnoticed, and is salve to a wound.
Justin Edwards
October 18, 2012
Here is an update regarding Billy Graham that gives further credence to my Reason #2 from the article: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/16/billy-grahams-group-removes-mormon-cult-reference-from-website-after-romney-meeting/?hpt=hp_c3
Linda
October 20, 2012
Cowardly Christians? Wow, Have people especially Christians fallen this far away from how utterly wicked Mormonism actually IS?
Here’s a video on the Mormon Cult to refresh anyone’s memory of just how utterly abysmal and wicked they are–http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfz6pG5JRQY
rpavich
October 20, 2012
Linda,
We are all aware of what the LDS church teaches; I’m VERY aware of it…we just disagree on whether those holding something other than the Christian faith should be voted for as president of the US…they are two different issues.
Linda
October 21, 2012
rpavich,,, where have I said we “must vote for a president that is of the Christian faith? The majority of our presidents were NOT of the Christian faith…
rpavich
October 21, 2012
@Linda,
This whole post is about not voting for a person due to their non-christian faith…now if we are to be consistent, we’d include any non-christian faith as they all are in direct contradiction to God’s word.
And I wholeheartedly agree with you that most of our presidents were not born again Christians…which makes this whole post about not voting for Mitt even more inconsistent.
Justin Edwards
October 21, 2012
rpavich, the whole post is not about Romney not being a Christian. In fact, none of this article has been about that. Reason 1, the least concern, is concerned with his Mormon worldview; Reason 2 is concerned with the deception Mormonism is playing in the visible church; and Reason 3, the primary concern, is regarding the fact that Romney is not pro-life. Reason 3 is enough to keep me from voting for him regardless of Mormonism. I hope this gives you clarity as to why I am not voting for Romney.
Justin Edwards
October 21, 2012
p.s. rpavich, in case you missed it, I posted a follow-up article to this one elaborating on Reason 3. It may help you further understand my position: https://airocross.com/2012/10/10/mitt-romneys-rape-and-incest-exceptions-for-abortion/
rpavich
October 21, 2012
Justin,
Quote:
rpavich, the whole post is not about Romney not being a Christian. In fact, none of this article has been about that.
End Quote
Huh?
it sure has…his “evil” worldview disqualifies him from leading the country, and the only acceptable worldview would be ….ahh….Christianity…would it not?
His worldview is non Christian…and that’s the basis of your post..that his “evil” worldview/beliefs keep you from voting for him.
Quote:
Reason 1, the least concern, is concerned with his Mormon worldview; Reason 2 is concerned with the deception Mormonism is playing in the visible church; and Reason 3, the primary concern, is regarding the fact that Romney is not pro-life. Reason 3 is enough to keep me from voting for him regardless of Mormonism. I hope this gives you clarity as to why I am not voting for Romney.
End Quote
Except for the pro life thing, all the other reasons boil down to his LDS worldview…
Just so you know, his stance on the pro-life thing is also based in the LDS belief of the preexistence and when a “person” becomes a “person”…didn’t know if you knew that or not.
Justin Edwards
October 21, 2012
rpavich, yes, his worldview precludes me from voting for him, but it does not follow that the candidate must be a Christian to receive my vote (as I said in this article and the previous one). And for what it is worth, his worldview is evil because it denies the God of Scripture. Do you disagree that it is evil?
Romney’s position on life is no small thing – again, it’s the primary reason for not voting for him. His worldview just so happens to be the basis for his position, which I pointed out in the article. Nevertheless, it doesn’t really matter from what his position is informed – the bottom line is that he makes exceptions for murder, and that is an abomination before the Lord.
rpavich
October 21, 2012
Justin,
Quote:
rpavich, yes, his worldview precludes me from voting for him, but it does not follow that the candidate must be a Christian to receive my vote (as I said in this article and the previous one). And for what it is worth, his worldview is evil because it denies the God of Scripture.
End Quote
Let’s stop there.
Question: Is there ANY non Christian faith that acknowledges the correct God of Christian scripture?
Of course not.
Then by your own standard, all non-Christians are precluded from leading the US.
Justin Edwards
October 21, 2012
rpavich, if it is true that Ronald Reagan was not a Christian, I submit he held to a Christian worldview. If alive today and he agreed with me on life, marriage, and Israel, that is a situation where I may vote for a person who holds to a Christian worldview but may not necessarily be Christian.
rpavich
October 21, 2012
Justin,
How exactly can one not be a Christian but hold to the Christian worldview? It’s not possible…either one’s worldview IS Christian or it’s not…there is no middle ground.
You are reaching now… 😦
melanie
October 21, 2012
It is very possible – false converts.
Robert Pavich
October 22, 2012
Melanie…you must mean “worldview SIMILAR to the Christian worldview” then, if a non-Christian can hold it.
Not the same as holding to an actual Christian worldview.
Justin Edwards
October 21, 2012
rpavich, it’s not reaching at all, and I already gave you one example how it is possible (Reagan). Another example would be myself. For 22 years, I was a false convert, but I still held to a Christian worldview. I submit that in American Christianity, it would be very plausible that any conservative candidate running for president could have a Christian worldview but not be a Christian. History says as much, in fact. The likelihood of having any conservative candidate who is a born again believer is pretty low in my humble opinion. Nevertheless, they would likely have a Christian worldview.
Linda
October 21, 2012
Exactly Justin and you took the example I was going to give (Reagan)… I’d vote again for someone who was like Reagan even though they are not a true Convert.
religion IS the principal driving force behind politics. Politics does not drive religion. One needs to understand that (every) politician has a worldview he believes and the same goes with Mitt Romney. What one believe is what causes him to go the direction politically that he/she goes and takes this nation. One does not need to look very far to see this with Obama and his beliefs and where he has taken this nation.
It DOES matter that Mitt Romney is a Mormon. It does matter with Obama and his beliefs. Are people happy with Obama’s religious views as our President? Many of his policies have been made and based on his religious views. If Mormonism matters to Romney and I believe it does, and if one understands Mormonism, they should NOT take this so lightly. If we voted for a Muslim, their religious views would drive their policies. Religion is not separated when one is sworn into Presidency. That is just ridiculous to think so.
The thing about Mormonism is that Romney is not his own individual -He is NOT autonomous from Mormonism even if he is elected as our President and (That’s the problem.) He has to answer to the Mormon Church as final authority. Every mormon must faithfully submit to every “manipulation from the top”.
Mormonism has one of the highest rates statistically when it comes to divorce, suicide, homosexuality and child abuse. There are STILL 10’s of thousands who are fundamental Mormons that hold to polygamy and the “blood sacrifice”
I’m NOT saying that Mitt Romney is for Polygamy= I don’t know. There are many offshoots from the original beliefs of Mormonism. But the simple fact that He is Mormon, will lend credence to only strengthen their beliefs as “true” and convert many to believe Mormonism is Christian.
The difference with a “Christian” worldview even when one has not truly been born again is that although the majority of our Presidents were not Christians, they still HELD TO biblical principles in their decision making and policies and they still held God’s word in HIGH regard. They were certainly not perfect in any way and if they were against abortion and homosexuality I would have voted for them regardless. Mormonism is a totally controlled cult from the highest echelons in their church
Just like Justin stated I cannot vote for anyone who is for murder of innocent babies period.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Justin.
I didn’t say “worldview that is “SIMILAR to the Christian world view”
I said “the CHRISTIAN worldview”
Not the same thing.
Like I said your standard is for a born again only president.
Justin Edwards
October 22, 2012
rpavich, you can try to put words in my mouth all you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that I do not require a presidential candidate to be a Christian. One can claim to have a Christian worldview, and that worldview can be consistently based on biblical principles, but that does not mean they are born again necessarily. For example, the Christian worldview says God is the Creator of all things and rejects evolution; it presupposes life begins at conception; that absolute truth exists; that morality is based on God’s Word; that salvation comes by faith not by works; that heaven and hell exist; that Jesus is returning to judge the nations; that the Bible is inerrant; that Jesus is the only way to heaven and all other religions are false and lead to hell. One can believe all of these things and more, which means they have a Christian worldview. But that does not mean they are necessarily a Christian as they may lack genuine repentance. Again, I point to myself as a primary example of one who had a Christian worldview but was not a Christian.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Justin,
I’m not putting words into your mouth…I’m asking how can a person hold an ACTUAL Christian worldview while being “non Christian”…it’s not possible.
You keep referring to views that are LIKE Christian worldviews and equating them with the ACTUAL Christian worldview.
Part of the ACTUAL Christian worldview is being “born again”…that’s part of our worldview…not separate from it.
You are saying (in reality) I would vote for someone who’s views are MORE LIKE a real Christian worldview and I’m going to be the one to decide HOW MUCH LIKE our worldview that’s going to be….”
Fine.
Justin Edwards
October 22, 2012
By believing in facts about Christianity and about God, but not submitting to Him as Lord and repenting from their sin and selfish ambitions. One can even believe that one must be born again to enter heaven, but not be born again themselves.
I agree with basically what you are saying with regards to favoring a candidate whose worldview is most consistent with Christianity. In essence, what I am putting forth is that someone can have a worldview that is largely consistent with a genuine Christian worldview, but one that is not fully developed unto saving faith. One can believe all the facts about God, but still not be saved. Again, that was me. I claimed no other worldview as my own. So if you say I did not have a Christian worldview, what worldview did I have? I can tell you it wasn’t humanistic, naturalistic, Islamic, or Mormon. What then, if there are no middle areas?
rpavich
October 22, 2012
So you are fine with a pagan for president as long as he knows all the correct facts about Christianity and he’s a “good moral pagan”?
IF you weren’t Christian…then you didn’t actually have a Christian worldview.
Period. You had a “almost but still fake” worldview…moral, polite, but ultimately not Christian.
Justin Edwards
October 22, 2012
Well, I know I wasn’t a Christian, rpavich. But we are getting lost in the semantics. The point is, yes, it is possible for me to vote for a “good moral pagan” if they pass my litmus test. I already gave you Reagan as an example if it is true he was not a Christian. Maybe he had a “fake Christian worldview.” Maybe I did too. 🙂
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Justin,
thanks for clarifying…I believe that I understand.
I don’t think that we were getting lost in the semantics…I think we clarified your position.
Thanks very much.
bob
Michael
October 21, 2012
Mormonism is one of the fastest-growing religions in the United States and in the world. The day is coming when it will be rare NOT to have a Mormon President. If it doesn’t happen this year, it will happen, if not in our lifetime, at least in our grandchildren’s lifetime. There will be many more Mormon members of the House, the Senate, the Cabinet, and the Supreme Court. It will be commonplace and very few Americans will think, “Oh, no! There are Mormons in positions of power!” The vast majority of Americans won’t think it is any big deal. And, yes, more and more Americans will identify themselves as Mormons. This has been gradually happening, little by little, for the past 100 years, and it will not stop. Why? Because Mormonism is The Most American Religion there is. It is a Real American Religion. I’m not saying it’s True (I don’t believe it is). I’m not saying it’s Good. But, nothing is going to stop Mormonism from growing and growing. Those of you who think Mormonism WILL stop growing and growing, please explain HOW that will happen?
Justin Edwards
October 21, 2012
Good points, Michael. I think the mainstreaming of Mormonism will lend more and more to its acceptance and validation as a branch of Christianity. So to your point, I do not believe this trend will stop. As the Day of the Lord approaches, the deception will increase and the days will grow darker into religious pluralism and a rejection of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Michael
October 21, 2012
Thanks for your reply! “The mainstreaming of Mormonism” and its “acceptance and validation” is happening because Almost Every well-known and popular Conservative Evangelical Protestant has urged Christians to vote for Mitt Romney, has implied that it would be a sin to Not vote for Romney, and has Not said one word about………”but pray about it first, listen to what God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit is speaking to you about this, follow your conscience, do what you believe God is telling you to do about this.” No! They are basically saying, “Vote for Romney or shame on you for destroying America!” Even Billy Graham and his son are basically saying now that Mormonism is just another Christian denomination. Why is it not possible for a Christian to think, “Maybe this is God’s way now of saying that Mormonism is True and Good. Look! It is bringing Christians together who used to attack each other! Mormonism may be God’s way of bringing the Body of Christ together, finally!” You call it “religious pluralism”. Graham, Robertson, Dobson, etc., I guess, are calling it “God’s Plan To Save America”.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
@Michael,
Quote:
Even Billy Graham and his son are basically saying now that Mormonism is just another Christian denomination.
Huh?
Where did they say that?
I do disagree with backing down from calling non-Christian belief systems what they are…and I do believe that the Graham organization is in the wrong for taking down this particular material, but that’s a far cry from “they are saying that Mormonism is just another Christian denomination.”
It IS POSSIBLE to understand Mormonism, to know what they teach…to even speak out against it as I have, but to also see no issue in voting for a Mormon for Prez.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Michael,
I forgot to add that while I disagree with the Graham association taking down certain documents on their site…they certainly have (in multiple places) not softened their stance on what a cult is…this quote is from their “cult” Q&A:
Question:
On TV the other day, they were talking about a man who claims to be God’s one true prophet, and says God speaks through him. Because of that, his followers always obey him and won’t listen to anyone else. Could he actually be a modern day prophet who speaks for God? — Mrs. B.T.
Answer:
The Bible warns that toward the end of the present age false prophets will arise and try to lure people away from faith in Christ. Jesus said, “Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people” (Matthew 24:11). The Apostle Paul warned that “impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” (2 Timothy 3:13).
One of the characteristics of leaders like this is that they claim they, and they alone, have the truth about God. But one way to spot them is to ask what they think of Jesus Christ. [b]They will never agree with what the Bible teaches: He was God’s only Son, who came down from heaven and saved us by His death on the cross. Nor will they agree that He was God’s final and complete revelation of Himself, and that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9).[/b]
Don’t be deceived by those who reject the Bible or twist its clear meaning, [b]or claim the Bible needs the “wisdom” of some later prophet to make it complete. [/b] Instead, put your trust and faith in Christ, for He alone is able to save us, and He alone gives us hope of eternal life. Ask Him to come into your life right now.
Then ask God to help you find a church where Christ is central and the Bible is taught, so you can be “rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith” (Colossians 2:7).
That doesn’t sound like they are “basically accepting Mormonism as just another Christian denomination” does it? They described Mormonism specifically; the prophet, the “praying for wisdom”….
You are going beyond what they’ve said and done…
Tracey
October 22, 2012
Going along with Linda’s response in why we should be concerned about Mormonism…
Have you considered that Romney would throw you quickly under the bus one day because in his faith, none of us are part of the “True Church” unless we have been baptized into LDS?
Hmmm…kinda makes you think about what the antichrist will do one day.
Good thing LDS do not believe they can be gods one day by reaching the highest level…oh wait…scratch that. 😉
Is the soil fertile?
We as Believers, should fear and revere what God’s Word says FIRST. If we claim we are His Believers, we are called to obedience-not to results.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Definition of accursed: abominable; damnable; under a curse.
Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God.
I Corinthians 10:31
Linda
October 22, 2012
I agree with you Tracey. I cringe at the thought of their belief in “blood sacrifice”. Can you imagine them thinking they are “doing good” for God by slaughtering all who aren’t converting to their “true Church”?
I think many Christians are myopic and don’t consider on down the line how serious this actually is.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Linda,
I don’t think so.
Many Christians know a LOT about the Mormon faith and even speak out against it…while also voting Mormons into office in government.
That’s the connection that nobody has made….why EXACTLY we’d not want a non-christian in office. (other than personal preference which has abounded here in this thread)
I agree…Mormon faith=henius false gospel=damning gospel….but that STILL doesn’t explain the connection to elected office.
Linda
October 22, 2012
I understand and agree with you Tracey. I get it
Linda
October 22, 2012
opps wrong place I thought I was at the bottom.. sorry
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Tracy,
I don’t understand EXACTLY what you mean when you say “throw you under the bus..”
what specific action are you referring to and why do you think Romney will do it?
Tracey
October 22, 2012
It’s like what Justin is trying to explain to you…it’s not because of someone being a non-Christian. A Mormon has gone above and beyond what is Written in Scripture and have added to it thereby saying that the Bible is incorrect because Joseph Smith was ‘divinely inspired’ to write down the ‘truth.’ OK. We get that right? It’s wrong. It’s false. We agree.
One of the oaths a Mormon takes is to build up their kingdom “above all else” and to uphold the the beliefs in LDS.
Can you give me a reason why a Mormon would NOT do the detestable things that Scripture says the antichrist will do when the testament of their faith violates Scripture left and right?
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Tracy,
All non-christians disbelieve the word….why are Mormons singled out as being more evil than any other group that are pagan?
PS: You made the statement about what Mitt would do..I’m just challenging you to do more than present a baseless assertion….be specific..what will Mitt do when in office that you would object to?
Tracey
October 22, 2012
If you knew that the antichrist will be a Mormon would you still vote one in office who has power in this country and to nominate other Mormon’s as Supreme Court Judges, again, who believe that you and I are not part of the “true church.”
What makes us think they will not make common citizens uphold to their church doctrine in order to build their kingdom (which is their goal, remember)? Ultimately, isn’t that what the antichrist will make all people do one day? If one doesn’t, then you will be beheaded.
This very well could be the Lord’s will though, because we know what Scripture has revealed to us, to warn us. We know the antichrist is coming, if not already here.
I don’t plan on being here, regardless.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Tracy,
You aren’t making sense now.
Now you are making scenarios up for some reason…I don’t know why.
If you don’t have any concrete reason on which to base your earlier comments about what Mitt will do ….just say so but making things up doesn’t get us anywhere.
Tracey
October 22, 2012
“Now you are making scenarios up for some reason…I don’t know why.”
Because you asked me…
“what specific action are you referring to and why do you think Romney will do it?”
You asked what I thought and I gave you what I thought… 😉
rpavich
October 22, 2012
So your answer is that you have no real example of what Mitt might do that would be objectionable so you made something up.
Great.
If you want to keep to reality…then give some real example of some decision that you have some reason to believe that Mitt would make as president because of his LDS beliefs that would preclude him from consideration.
Tracey
October 22, 2012
Reality:
Mitt has already sworn an oath of allegiance to the Mormon church above all else.
By being a temple worthy Mormon, he has sworn a secret temporal allegiance to the Mormon Church.
The Mormon Temple Law of Consecration:
PETER: A couple will now come to the alter. (The Witness couple comes forward, and kneels at the altar (THE MORMON TEMPLE ALTER THAT IS.)
We are instructed to give unto you the Law of Consecration as contained in the book of Doctrine and Covenants (The Officiator picks up a copy of the Doctrine and Covenants (THE MORMON CHURCH RULES FOR RULING THE EARTH) from the altar, and holds it up in view of all patrons.), in connection with the Law of the Gospel and the Law of Sacrifice which you have already received.
It is that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents and everything which the Lord (THE MORMON GOD) has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, for the building up of the Kingdom of (MORMON) God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion (MORMON THEOCRACY).
All arise. (All patrons stand.) Each of you bring your right arm to the square (secret Mormon demonstration of I will do it or have my life taken from me).
You and each of you covenant and promise before (MORMON) God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in this, (The Officiator holds up a copy of the Doctrine and Covenants again.), the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.
Each of you bow your head and say “yes.”
I gave you an example already of how anyone outside of the LDS church is not part of the “true church” in their view. Their goal is to convert everyone to Mormonism.
We are not hiring someone to be a doctor…we are hiring someone that we are giving power to do what he believes is right and adheres to “above all else.”
This is what concerns me. If it doesn’t concern you, then that’s ok. Grace and peace to you! 🙂
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Tracy,
Again….nothing new here…but you left the dots disconnected once again.
News flash: I KNOW what the LDS church teaches…you don’t NEED to tell me what they teach….
what you NEED to do is give me some EXAMPLE of what Mitt would do, that you are afraid of given his LDS faith.
That’s the missing ingredient…
Michael
October 22, 2012
So, you “see no issue in voting for a Mormon for Prez” and yet you believe that Mormons follow a “false prophet who is deceiving many people”. Got it. I think. No, actually, I don’t get it. With all sincerity.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
@Michael…
Yes…exactly. I see no issue.
Why would their be an issue?
Can a Mormon not balance the budget? Can a Mormon not stand up for my right to speak freely about my religion in public?
I guess I keep failing to see the biblical mandate against voting for certain individuals to public office.
Michael
October 23, 2012
As long as you are consistent, I am fine with your view.
Can a Satanist not balance the budget? Can a Scientologist not cut taxes? Can a Wiccan not save Medicare? Can a Muslim not appoint Pro-Life Judges? Can an Atheist not stand up for my right to speak freely about my religion in public?
Be consistent, and you will have no quarrel with me.
rpavich
October 23, 2012
Michael,
What’ the biblical mandate?
If you just want to say that this is your preference….then you’ll have no quarrel with me.
PS: Yes…I don’t care, satanist, muslim, Scientologist…they have the same skills to balance the budget…they can be doctors, lawyers, ditch diggers, even president.
I willl point out though that by your standard, then we can’t have anyone in any place in government (or other places) who’s not a born again Christian…are you willing to be consistent?
Michael
October 23, 2012
We are both consistent and I actually share your view that Jesus Does Not Care if we vote for a Mormon, a Satanist, a Scientologist, a Wiccan, a Muslim, an Atheist, a Hindu, a Buddhist, etc., as long as they have the skills to perform their job requirements. Why WOULD Jesus care anyway?
Justin Edwards
October 23, 2012
I am curious, how is it that we could vote for a Satanist, but not for Obama? Surely there are men more wicked than others for which it would be unfathomable for a Christian to vote for such a person (do we not draw that very conclusion for Obama?)
Michael
October 23, 2012
My last post was part sarcasm AND part honesty. “rpavich” says he believes that Mormons follow “false prophets” who are “deceiving people about Jesus”, but that Jesus Does Not Care if His followers support them for positions of political power as long as they have the proper skills and qualifications for those positions of power. Does that confuse me? Yes. Can I refute that view? No. Do I believe “rpavich’s” view is more right than wrong? What time is it? I’m not afraid/embarrassed to say, “I find all of this confusing and I don’t know what is right/wrong, who is right/wrong about this issue.” I DO feel that it is rather silly to “pick on” Mormonism, when the word “Mormon” can be substituted with “Muslim”, “Jew”, Buddhist”, “Satanist”, etc., if what we are talking about is People Who Don’t Believe That Jesus Is God Incarnate. Yes, I realize Romney is Mormon, so that’s the issue now. But, if Romney was a “Muslim”, “Satanist”, etc., I sincerely find it hard to believe that so many Conservative Evangelical Christians would be happily supporting him…….just because he is “not Obama” or just because he is “the conservative candidate”. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe in the future Conservative Evangelical Christians will happily support a “Muslim” or “Satanist” candidate over “the other guy”. In fact, I’m becoming more convinced that they would, because they are saying that, “We’re not electing a Pastor. The Bible doesn’t say we have to vote for Christians only. What matters is their positions on the issues and their skills and qualifications.” I was (am) hoping that “rpavich” will explain in very simple terms (for my benefit!) Why Jesus Does Not Care if Christians vote for a Satanist. Now, I DO NOT equate Mormonism with Satanism in any way! I keep using “Satanist” because I think of it as the Farthest one can get from Christianity and Jesus. So, is there an “exception” for people like “rpavich”——-Mormons, ok to vote for. Muslims, ok. Hindus, ok. Satanists, NOT ok. “rpavich” says YES to ALL those with the proper skills, even Satanists. So, yes I call him “consistent”. I wonder, though, if there are others who will say “Yes” for Mormons, but “No” for——-others. But, WHICH others. And why those? Now, do I REALLY believe that Jesus Does Not Care if I vote for a Satanist? My Heart and my Soul may say, “Yes, He cares!” But, my Head says, “The only HONEST answer to that question is—–I don’t know”. I don’t know if Jesus cares about that. How CAN I know that for sure? What would convince me one way or the other? I don’t know. “rpavich’s” answer, like I said, confuses me, but I LIKE his answer. It’s simple and clear and consistent—– Jesus doesn’t care WHAT religious beliefs (or non-beliefs) a candidate has as long as that person has the necessary skills to perform the job. Maybe I just prefer “simple”. For now, I’m going with “rpavich”. Maybe four hours from now I’ll be “convinced” to think differently. My mind is open. Sorry this was soooo long!
rpavich
October 24, 2012
Michael,
Quote:
The Bible doesn’t say we have to vote for Christians only. What matters is their positions on the issues and their skills and qualifications.” I was (am) hoping that “rpavich” will explain in very simple terms (for my benefit!) Why Jesus Does Not Care if Christians vote for a Satanist.
Before I say “bingo”…I’ll thank you for your transparency. That’s not a trait that Christians exhibit very much these days…and not here on this thread 🙂
But yes…bingo. Jesus doesn’t speak about electing people for certain jobs and what makes them qualified. (outside of the church structure that is)
I can’t even find anything that’s applicable to that OTHER than Paul’s admonition that government leaders are put there by God….
That’s it. God is sovereign and He’s putting people where HE wants them. You do your part and elect the person who you think will do the best job (as all people do) and God makes his plans.
That’s it…nothing more. I haven’t seen one passage that’s been brought up that has any relevancy to the issue other than that….just opinions blared loud and proud.
I guess we are done here…I just wanted to answer your very well put (sincere) question.
have a good day.
Michael
October 24, 2012
Thank you for your clear (and easy for me to understand) response! I especially like your answer about how “God is putting people where He wants them.” And, that God has His plans. And, although many Christians claim to know Every One Of God’s Plans for themselves, their family and friends, their neighbors, strangers, and everyone in the whole world, I find comfort in knowing that I do NOT know and do not HAVE to know all of God’s Plans For The World! (I would consider that a “burden” and not a “blessing”.)
Even though I often vote differently than some of my Christian family members and friends, I have never felt “guilty” or “sinful” voting the way I have (even though some have said I SHOULD feel guilty and sinful for the way I voted.) And, I learned long ago that there was No Point in trying to “justify” the way I voted to them because their minds were closed about that. So, thank you again for reminding me to “do my part and elect (vote for) the person who I think will do the best job” and let God do the rest! I really think it IS that simple! Sometimes “simple” is the “Truth”.
Peace be with you!
rpavich
October 24, 2012
Actually, not sure IF we could or not; a Satanist would be (I guess) pro-everything-not-Christian…but let’s pretend we had a Satanist (since we are now in the realm of just making things up at this point) who supported the following:
1.) Supported Pro Life legislation
2.) Supported free speech
3.) Supported biblical marriage
And all the other things that we as Christians think is important….we’d then not vote for him because of his “faith”?
He’s doing everything EVERYTHING that we think is important…but his faith is wrong.
Michael
October 24, 2012
I feel silly now that I even brought up the “Satanist” thing in my eariler posts! There’s maybe a 0.0000000001% chance that a Satanist would ever be the nominee for ANY office in ANY political party. But, boy, wouldn’t that sure make this “Mormon controversy” look as trivial as it probably is!
Tracey
October 22, 2012
Genesis 3:1-6
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5“For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
Just like back in the Garden of Eden, had Adam and Eve resorted back to God’s Word FIRST, they would have avoided the downfall of sin. Eve was looking at “the results” from what the serpent told her ‘would happen.’
How similar the serpents words are to Mormonism today.
Will you be like Eve, desiring the fruit, based upon the results she assumes? Satan can camouflage even “getting Obama out of office, regardless” with a shiny piece of fruit.
Don’t throw God’s Word under the bus. Turn to it before making a decision.
Grace and peace to you.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Tracy,
You’re not making yourself clear.
How EXACTLY does the Genesis account mean that we shouldn’t have a non-christian in office in the US?
I’m confused.
Second question: IF a person is in office, (even if we think him despicable) is that person there in spite of God’s power or is he there BECAUSE that’s who God put there?
Tracey
October 22, 2012
I’m not saying that we can’t have a non-Christian in the office. I would vote for a non-Christian who upholds to a Biblical worldview whether he claims he is a Believer or not.
To me, (not saying or implying that Justin feels the same way) the piece of fruit in the Garden of Eden is comparable to “doing whatever to get Obama out of office” without taking into account what God’s Word says first and foremost. People want the results without obedience to Scripture first. Does that make better sense in my reasoning?
God’s will will be done regardless. What I’m concerned about is “I” wasn’t involved in putting whomever in office when they do not hold true to a Biblical worldview because of what I read in Scripture. If I am wrong, then the Lord will deal with me one day. But, I don’t believe He is going to ask me why didn’t I cast my approval for someone who is following a damnable belief.
Do I believe the Lord uses wicked people in authority? Yes. Do I expect the Lord wants me to cast my approval for someone who does not hold to a Biblical worldview-regardless if he’s a Believer or not? No.
I will be voting, but not for candidate A or B, in order to get A out of office. Whether candidate C wins or not, it’s not in my hands anyways for the results are left up to the Lord because I believe His will will be done regardless.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
@Tracy,
Quote:
I’m not saying that we can’t have a non-Christian in the office. I would vote for a non-Christian who upholds to a Biblical worldview whether he claims he is a Believer or not.
End quote.
No non-Christian can/has the ability to hold/uphold the Christian worldview…period.
Unbelievers cannot please God, and by definition, them upholding ALL of the Christian worldview (all parts of God’s word) would be pleasing to God.
What non-believer do you know would agree in the inerrancy of Scripture?
What non-believer do you know of who would agree that The father is God…Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God?
I certainly don’t know one….do you?
IF you mean “I’d vote for someone who was pretty moral and didn’t make his views about who Jesus is known like Mitt has…”
Then I see where you are coming from.
Tracey
October 22, 2012
My brother believes abortion is wrong at all costs and is not a Believer. Yet, abortion is a Biblical worldview of not murdering.
You said,
Quote:
What non-believer do you know would agree in the inerrancy of Scripture?
What non-believer do you know of who would agree that The father is God…Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God?
I certainly don’t know one….do you?
End Quote.
My answer: Satan himself.
One may agree, but not necessarily follow. This is why we need to resort to Scripture first so that we are not deceived.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Tracy,
I never said that Non Christians cannot act or believe in a moral (according to the world) way.
Not part of my argument.
I was speaking of people on earth…not all created beings.
If you know of a human that believes that the trinity is a true fact but isn’t a believer…just let me know…then I will concede that unbelievers can hold to the Christian worldview and not just a “pretty close-morally pretty good” worldview.
Justin Edwards
October 22, 2012
“What non-believer do you know of who would agree that The father is God…Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God?”
68 million Roman Catholics in the United States.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Justin,
You got me there…and you’ve reinforced my observation that what we are REALLY talking about is “Christian vs Non-Christian”….
Justin Edwards
October 22, 2012
Perhaps rpavich, but only if my position was that I could not vote for a Catholic. Also, I believed in the Trinity for 22 years, but was not saved. I presume that to be the case for many false converts in American evangelicalism today (85% profess to be Christians in America). So it is very possible for a non-believer to believe in the Trinity.
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Yes….you are correct…we can be false converts.
I wasn’t asking, however about false converts….I was asking about pagans and what their worldview is.
You and Tracy both know that if you walked up to the general pagan non-christian that they would most certainly not affirm the Christian worldview…by definition they cannot.
PS: you both are really going through gyrations to prop up your post here…are they’re any other made-up scenarios that we need to go through before we just say we don’t want to vote for a non-christian unless he seems really moral and doesn’t voice his specific views on certain theological topics?
Justin Edwards
October 22, 2012
Bob, that is not what you said. You simply said “non-Christian”, and I gave you millions of examples of non-Christians/non-believers who believe in the Triune God, though not savingly. I certainly agree that those who do not hold to a Christian worldview would reject the doctrine of the Trinity.
I have simply answered your questions, and you have continued to pound on the matter of “Christian vs non-Christian” candidates. I have, numerous times, explained how it is not necessary for a candidate to be a Christian for me to vote for them. Moreover, I have not tried to convince you of how you need to vote, but rather explained why I will not be voting for Romney. And again, Romney’s Mormonism is the least of my concerns, though his Mormonism does inform his position on life, which is my greatest concern.
I think the horse is pretty dead by now. Grace and peace to you as you hit the booth in the next couple of weeks. I may try to do that on my way home (and with a clear conscience 🙂 ).
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Justin,
Yep…you are right…and sorry if I kept the horse alive too long…that’s one of my shortcomings….and I find myself apologizing for it too many times.
Thanks for the polite conversation….God bless brother.
Tracey
October 22, 2012
I can’t reply up above to your last statement to me:
Quote:
Tracy,
Again….nothing new here…but you left the dots disconnected once again.
News flash: I KNOW what the LDS church teaches…you don’t NEED to tell me what they teach….
what you NEED to do is give me some EXAMPLE of what Mitt would do, that you are afraid of given his LDS faith.
That’s the missing ingredient…
End Quote.
Again, you want RESULTS before you’ll be obedient to Scripture. I am willing and want to be obedient before I know the results. I can’t explain anymore than what I have already. I’m not condemning you. We each have to decide on our own. Grace and peace to you. 🙂
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Tracy,
THAT’S the disconnect…you haven’t proven anything by scripture…lol…that’s my objection exactly!
Just posting a scriptural quote doesn’t a proof make.
I’m also making my decision based on scripture…. 🙂
Tracey
October 22, 2012
I believe I already have, 1 Cor 10:31! Bringing glory to God apparently has different interpretations however. I’m good. Have a blessed day!
rpavich
October 22, 2012
Well…since that passage is speaking about being thankful for what you do and all you have can you let me know how voting for anyone brings glory to God or not?
Be specific about it and not speak in generalities as you have so far.
I don’t see the connection between what Paul is saying and what you’ve said so far about not voting for a Mormon.
Dana
October 22, 2012
i have really been going back and forth on to vote or not to vote. After an afternoon with a family member, who has been a christian for decades, tells me that she thinks romney is a christian because he says he believes in Jesus. I tell her that it is a different jesus not the Jesus of the Bible, then I get the who are we to judge verse pulled out on me. she then tells me even Billy Graham took mormonism off of his site. Tell me again, how his mormonism isn’t a big deal. If this can happen to my family, it can happen to anyone. I can only imagine how many people or should I say Christians will be seduced into thinking that mormonism is just another denomination such as baptists, pentecostals, presbyterians, ect, Let me just say that after that conversation, it just put such a serious burden on my heart as to how many people may fall by the wayside by the mormon cult. I don’t want obama to win another four years as much as many here don’t, but consider also that having a handsome, charasmatic, mormon who is going to “restore” america, may lead many to believe a false doctrine. I never really thought about this side of having a mormon president until two days ago. We need to remember that no matter who is elected, God is still on the throne. May He be glorified no matter what happens.
Linda
October 23, 2012
Exactly Dana. This is why I wouldn’t touch this with a ten foot pole. And I just wonder how Christians can get so upset and up in arms with Graham and his people pulling Mormonism as a cult from their website but they will still will vote for Romney?
We who see the seriousness of this NOW are giving the clarion call to Christians but the opposition just don’t see it. It will be too late. But then again it doesn’t matter who is voted for because our nation is at least 16 trillion dollars in debt. No one can get us out of this mess but GOD. Now God may permit Romney (if elected) to get us out of this mess which would sway masses of people to believe in Mormonism. That will be a great deception to the false gospel.
rpavich
October 23, 2012
Linda,
Quote:
And I just wonder how Christians can get so upset and up in arms with Graham and his people pulling Mormonism as a cult from their website but they will still will vote for Romney?
End Quote
Because the two aren’t related…that’s why.
I’m fully fine with speaking out against false religions and false teachers, while at the same time recognizing that Mitt would make a fine president.
No issue. I’m not afraid of some nebulous boogy-man that I can’t even articulate what I’m actually afraid of what will happen…except in the most vague general terms.
Linda
October 23, 2012
They ARE related rpavich.
Christians are being duped into thinking that voting for a Mormon as our President is not a big deal. Most Christians cannot see the forest from the trees. It is what Satan is using to catapult us into accepting what seems so innocent to a formation of this end time scenario of all these religions coming together. What is even more shocking as Brannon Howse states is “The connection between Islam and Mormonism.” Brannon also mentions a Pastor in the early 1900’s Bruce McKinney who wrote a book called “Mormonism America’s Islam.-“Amazing connections between Mormonism and Islam and why should we be shocked when I believe Joseph Smith and Muhammad both received from an entity that gave them these things, I believe very likely may have been Satan himself. And both of them Mormonism and Islam are both for world domination-a kingdom on earth. So you add in the Mormons, the Muslims, you add in the New Agers and you add in the New Apostolic Reformation–which MacArthur has so accurately said, “these people (the A.R.) are serving Satan-these are people doing works of Satan and attributing it to the Holy Spirit.” “You look at Mormonism, the New Age Movement and the New Apostolic Reformation, the Word of Faith–All these movements are fooling around with the demonic realm and all of them are pushing for (world dominion).” They would deny that (some of them) but that’s what they’re doing.”-end quote from Brannon Howse.
rpavich
October 23, 2012
Linda,
Quote:
They ARE related rpavich.
Christians are being duped into thinking that voting for a Mormon as our President is not a big deal. Most Christians cannot see the forest from the trees.
yeah…you keep saying but I keep waiting to see how.
You say that voting for a Mormon is a big deal but I fail to see how. Just saying it and waving your arms doesn’t make it so.
If you’re privvy to some inside info that I don’t know about concerning the end times…then bring it on.
So far I’ve only seen the “boogy-man in the closet” sort of response.
Linda
October 23, 2012
I have one question for you. Would you vote for a Muslim?
There are MANY CHristians that see what’s going on who are very credible 2 of which I’ve already mentioned. After all I’ve presented along with all the others to you all you do is dismiss the evidence that is unfolding, you continue to Jeer those who have laid out their reasons for not supporting Mormonism..
Continue to mock on sir but you will no longer have me responding to your disrespectful responses
rpavich
October 23, 2012
I’m not dismissing you or mocking you…I’m not accepting your face-value assertion.
Here is an example:
You: We can’t vote for a catholic…it’s well known that they believe unbiblical things.”
me: Why does it follow that we shouldn’t vote for someone who doesn’t believe what we believe?
You: ” Because if we do…then people will think what they believe is the same as us.”
me: “…no they won’t…I don’t.
You: I knew someone who changed their mind about these people after Billy Graham took his info down”
Me: “…so what? I know people that aren’t duped and haven’t changed their mind but they still don’t see your point.
You; “….you’re mocking me…..”
Basically that’s been the conversation. Your point is that if we elect a president who’s non-christian, then the antichrist is coming next week….and I’m saying that you keep repeating that over and over but you haven’t shown that.
There is a difference between showing some real causation and just asserting some.
Tracey
October 23, 2012
I agree Linda. If one was truly seeking wisdom, he should inquire of the Lord and not man (or woman.) No one’s telling him what to do and no one is trying to make him vote against his conscience.
When the Holy Spirit lays something heavy on your heart, you don’t ask for “proof.” You trust Him. Glory to God! 🙂
rpavich
October 23, 2012
Hmmm….so we shouldn’t try and convince another Christian to violate his/her conscience but hasn’t that been happening all through this comment thread?
Neither you nor Linda have said “Hey…I can’t tell you what to do…that’s between you and your conscience…I can only tell you what I’m going to do….”
Nope.
So are we now saying that I can vote my conscience (Romney) just like everyone else is?
Justin Edwards
October 23, 2012
rpavich, your point is really central to this article, which has the underlying point that we must each be convinced in his own mind based on his best judgment of the principles of Scripture that would bring God the most glory. While things like this may lead Christians to different conclusions, we need to be very careful that we do not devour one another when we differ. As I’ve said all along, whatever you do, do unto the Lord and your decision in how you vote is between you and Him. I hope we can all be faithful to one another in this regard.
Justin Edwards
October 23, 2012
p.s. I believe all states have early voting, at least Michelle Obama says lol…
rpavich
October 24, 2012
I agree 🙂
And thanks for the tip on early voting….I never thought to do that….I’m definitely going to take care of it this week…we start here in WV today.
FlawedMan
October 22, 2012
Hi Justin, Lord bless you. Keep on setting on eyes on heavenly things for this is the will of our Father in Christ Jesus. One more thing, Carol… your comments almost made me cry. Very often, I do not hear Believers speak with such accuracy, cohesion and conciseness. I could feel that the Spirit inspired you to write all those comments. God bless you abundantly, beloved. Cheers. 🙂
Justin Edwards
October 23, 2012
So, a wonderful thing happened yesterday and the pressure of voting is no longer present. I exercised my privilege to vote according to my conscience, according to my convictions, according to principles I perceive to be based on the Word of God. Neither Romney or Obama received my vote, but Virgil Goode of the Constitution Party did. I am at peace with the direction of this nation, because my God is in control of it all and my joy rests in Him alone.
I considered closing this thread, but since there are only two weeks before the election and the article is still the top article every day on the blog, I’ll keep it open so long as it is charitable and profitable.
My only encouragement to all is to vote early because I waited in line for an hour yesterday. With each passing day, my guess is that it is only going to get busier approaching election day (and I would not want to stand in line on that day!).
rpavich
October 23, 2012
Good for you Justin…
Question: Can anyone vote early? I’ve never heard of that.
How does one go about it?
Tracey
October 23, 2012
“The majority will get down on their knees to drink the water (with their lips.) A few will lap the water with their hands.”
Judges 7 is one of my favorite faith chapters.
To God be the Glory (especially using the underdog ;)!)
rpavich
October 23, 2012
@Dana,
Quote:
Dana
October 22, 2012
i have really been going back and forth on to vote or not to vote. After an afternoon with a family member, who has been a christian for decades, tells me that she thinks romney is a christian because he says he believes in Jesus. I tell her that it is a different jesus not the Jesus of the Bible, then I get the who are we to judge verse pulled out on me. she then tells me even Billy Graham took mormonism off of his site. Tell me again, how his mormonism isn’t a big deal. If this can happen to my family, it can happen to anyone.
End Quote
Yes..there are a LOT of Christians who are ignorant of their own faith and the faith of others….but I fail to see the connection with electing a president.
Are you saying that your Aunt knew about the false LDS gospel but when she saw Mitt was running for prez she forgot all that and decided he was Christian?
Of course not.
She was ignorant of the facts all along and the election had nothing to do with it.
The two are unrelated and nobody on this thread so far has made a real connection except to point to the dark closet and say that their might be a boogy man in there.
Dana
October 23, 2012
well let me just say it this way, she has known mormonism has been a cult for years, when the primaries were here, she didn’t like mitt because of his liberalism, not mormonism, same as in the 2008 elections. back then she knew mormonism was a cult. now her stance is anyone but obama. which I understand, i mean look at the last four years. i understand her point. and romney stating that he believes in jesus and god makes it easier for her to vote for him. having graham remove mormonism as being a cult, made it easier for her to believe that she believes he’s a christian. my whole point here is this, seeing family deceived by doctrines of demons is way more important to me than removing obama. the horrible feeling of hearing someone you love and someone you went to for prayer in time of need, going to church with, and having bible studies with is truly heartbreaking. I had been on the fence about voting this year, this just kind of seals the deal. i just see the bigger picture as how it pertains to my family. i was just informed that not only my aunt but four other family members believe romney to be christian as well. please pray for my family and other families who may believe this lie. perilous times are coming now matter who is elected. I believe the real Jesus will be arriving for his bride soon.
Maranatha
Tracey
October 23, 2012
@Dana, I know what you are going through. My elderly parents are reacting the same way. It’s the subtle-ness of the enemy in his crafty schemes of deceiving. (My parents also have no problem with WoF teachings either :(.)
Satan’s goal is to pull us away from the Truth. The temptation to compromise or “overlook” things is because we are seeking after what “we” want as a result. Our choices should be based on Truth in Scripture, not on our feelings, desires, or expected results. Or even because someone we admire says “it’s ok.” I respect BGEA, but it’s pretty obvious they didn’t want to hinder the voting process by calling a spade, a spade anymore, before Nov 6th.
I’m sure they still believe Mormonism is a cult, but are seeking the results they desire of getting Obama out of office. I understand their ‘feelings’ but am disappointed they were not willing to stick with proclaiming the Truth visibly for others to see since it’s obvious that there are many who are Believers and do not struggle with casting a vote for one who represents what is false-regardless if he’s a business guru.
My faith is in the Lord to see us through-whatever may come. My faith is not in any man to “see us to the other side.”
The danger IS deception, you are so correct, Dana! I will pray for your family as well as for mine. 🙂
Written by David Wilkerson:
…One of the most important things I have learned from my study of the New
Covenant is that it is the secret to having an overcoming life in the last
days. As the time of Christ’s return draws near, the devil is going to let
loose wild, demonic powers against God’s people such as the world has never
seen.
We see this happening already within the walls of the church. Satan has
infiltrated God’s house with subtle lies, false doctrines, demonic teachings.
Sadly, undiscerning Christians are swallowing it. Multitudes of deceptions and
heresies are swirling through the church and I ask you: How will believers be
able to stand in such times?
The Lord answers us by promising to take on the problem Himself. He assures us,
“Don’t be afraid. I will take this matter into My own hands and empower you
against every onslaught of the enemy through My New Covenant with you.”-devotion by David Wilkerson
Read this devotion online: http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/20074?src=devo-email
Linda
October 23, 2012
Dana, I believe the real Jesus is coming soon to take his bride home as well. I’ll be lifting you and your family up to the Lord that they would fear HIM.
“The Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy.” “Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.”-Isaiah 8:13.
terriergal
October 27, 2012
Great article. THANK YOU for standing for the truth. Compromise is everywhere. I’m so disgusted that Todd Friel and Ray Comfort keep subtly promoting the ‘lesser of two evils’ voting idea.
Why is the call for Christians to stick together always in the direction of compromise with evil? Why can’t the wavering ones be called to “all hands on deck” in the direction of truth? Even if we just consider the pro life issue and throw out the other GIANT issues with Romney (mormonism, pro-gay agenda, pro-gay marriage, false fiscal conservatism, pro-gun control), why do “conservatives” think that we should compromise in the area of life? If that isn’t the greatest moral national evil that could preclude voting for the lesser of two evils, (regardless of the SIZE of the group of babies the leader wants to allow to be slaughtered) then what IS?
Denise
October 27, 2012
This is a really good article and comment. What it really comes down to is a lack of faith. I think the lesser of two evils would be Obama if you think about the spiritual implications of a Mormon being in the highest office in the world. Can you imagine if he succeeds in bringing prosperity in this country and the advancement of Romney’s “church”? This will be the second time in a row that I will not vote for president. I will only vote for a person who is unwavering pro-life regardless of their professed religion.
Linda
October 28, 2012
I agree with you Denise.. Better to deal with the devil you do know than the devil you don’t know. You have good insight and discernment
rpavich
October 28, 2012
Linda,
Quote:
Better to deal with the devil you do know than the devil you don’t know.
End quote
I thought that we didn’t like the idea of “lesser of two evils”? That is precisely what you just advocated for.
rpavich
October 28, 2012
Denise,
Quote:
Can you imagine if he succeeds in bringing prosperity in this country and the advancement of Romney’s “church”?
End quote
Question:
What do you mean by “advancement” of his church?
IF you mean that it gets more “accepted” by Christians and then they convert to Mormonism then what does that say about your “faith” in God’s sovereignty?
Second question:
Should any LDS member hold any job? By your reasoning if they hold a pretty good job, then people will “listen” to what they have to say about their religion and be swayed and converted….at what career level do we want them to stall out so that their witness for the church won’t be influential?
The idea that people who are non-Christian can’t hold certain jobs because then people might not do their homework and see the LDS church for what it is is ludicrous.
Third Question:
What if a Mormon was. your supervisor in your factory job and thus had a sphere of power and people really liked him and tended to accept what he said? Would you say that he shouldn’t be supervisor so people won’t listen to his witness and possibly be converted?
Denise
October 28, 2012
A1: I understand God’s sovereignty, but it doesn’t mean that people will not be deceived by the multitudes and ushered in a cult.
A2: Strawman
A3: To be honest, I’m glad I don’t live in a swing state because nobody wants Obama out more than me. I’m not going vote in my desire for prosperity and ignore that Romney is part of a religion that blasphemes God by calling my Savior & King just a man who received “god like status” and is a brother of the devil. I trust in His sovereignty to know that He doesn’t need me, but He desires me to be faithful and trust Him. “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, NOT SEEKING MY OWN PROFIT but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.” 1 Corinthians 10:31-32
Just a side note; Romney’s stance on abortion is enough for me not vote for him. If we are going to be so apathetic as “Christians” to be selective in which children to exterminate on the basis of the father’s crime, than God’s judgement is probably upon us.
.
rpavich
October 29, 2012
Denise,
1.) You believe God is sovereign but then you go on to say that “multitudes” will be ushered into a cult…hmm….is God sovereign or not? IF they are ushered into a cult…then doesn’t it follow that God is ultimately behind the ushering?
He’s either sovereign or he’s not.
2.) Strawman? No it’s not…lol…it’s the essence of your argument. It boils your argument down to it’s components and shows what a bad argument it is.
So….what about a Mormon congressman? Is that enough of a “high position” that you think that Mormons should hold that job? How high does the position have to be before you think that Mormons shouldn’t hold them for fear that people might believe their testimony?
3.) So…you won’t vote for Romney because of his false religion but you will vote for Osama and his “black theology” ??
Aren’t both false? How is one “false gospel” more “false” than another?
As far as the abortion issue…that I get.
Denise
October 29, 2012
“So…you won’t vote for Romney because of his false religion but you will vote for Osama and his “black theology” ??”
Obviously you didn’t read my previous comments thoroughly. We can go back and forth all day. I’ll vote the way I want to, and you vote your way. It’s between you and God. Peace.
rpavich
October 29, 2012
Ahh….we agree on something.
Tracey
October 30, 2012
Great sermon from Oct 21st in regards to voting that is the first I have heard coming from the pulpit! (Justin will recognize this pastor.) http://www.centralchurchofgod.org/video-new.cfm?vidPath=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fccog_video%2F10%3A21%3A12%20video_Central%20Video%20.mp4&vidTitle=Sunday,%20October%2021,%202012&vidId=1605
Linda
October 30, 2012
That was awesome Tracey and He really blessed my heart. Thank you for sharing this
Tracey
October 30, 2012
Glad you enjoyed it Linda! The message encouraged me too. 🙂
Tracey
November 2, 2012
Some more insight from Scott Brown, pastor of a Family Integrated Church in NC. http://scottbrownonline.com/voting-for-a-mormon-a-21st-century-mega-shift/
mattmcmains82
November 5, 2012
I’ll be linking to this article on my blog this evening. While ultimately I end up disagreeing with your position, I respect it.
Justin Edwards
November 6, 2012
Hi Matt, thanks for linking to the article. I appreciate your neutral tone in your disagreement. I would just point out in case it was missed that Romney’s Mormonism is the least reason I did not vote for him. His view on life is ultimately what precluded me to vote for him, and I submit it may have even been possible for me to vote for him if he was truly pro-life. Grace and peace to you, brother.
Linda
November 6, 2012
Justin, Thank you for being such a man of integrity –rare in our day and I hope the LORD will use you to inspire more men to stand firm in truth and Justice like you. In your heart set apart Christ as Lord.
“Follow justice and justice alone, so that you may live and possess the land the LORD your God is giving you.”-Deuteronomy 16:20
Justin Edwards
November 6, 2012
Thank you for your kind and encouraging words, Linda. Glory be to our great God and King who reigns from everlasting to everlasting!